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Thread: "Playroom Renovation"

  1. #16
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Starting to look good

    Nice lookin new windows. What are the yellow things lying at the right of the pic and what do you use them for then ?
    Can you do a quick sketch of the truss form above your ceiling . I am assuming that the external shape follows the line of the angle at the edge of the ceiling upwards to an apex. Where are the stays in the truss form. Andy's idea might be easier than you think.
    I stand by my previous $0.02 regarding traps in the corners and i think that that may also be accomplished without fuss or ££ or $$ but I will be doing a web rummage as usual see what I can get.
    Are you planning to use 1/2 " sheeting ?

    Mac

  2. #17
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    You mean the audio levels? they're for keeping the horses level
    Corner bass traps will be implemented (it'd be silly not to), nothing else is going in those corners so that is a go my friend
    I included cross section of the space looking to the right of the speakers. I dont doubt that it can be done but bear in mind all the electrical work that is existing up there plus the AC ducts that are running through and all the insulation, not to mention all the clg. joists that would have to be cut, Id just as soon raise the entire structure, probably be slightly more expensive. Plus its nasty working up there, especially now!
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Here's a picture from the outside!
    Thats a load bearing plant coming out of the left side of the chimney

    The second one is from the front of the house, basically where the stereo sits between the two narrow windows, that picture shows how the two roof structures relate to each other.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    I stand by my previous $0.02 regarding traps in the corners and i think that that may also be accomplished without fuss or ££ or $$ but I will be doing a web rummage as usual see what I can get.
    Are you planning to use 1/2 " sheeting ?

    Mac
    Mac,

    One thing to remember is that room is relatively HUGE by UK standards and as such room mode issues should not be too bad (i.e. the modal density will be quite high so discrete modes should not be as audible compared to say the typical <200sq.ft UK listening room). More importantly, there is an amazing amount of "membrane" absorption in there already care of the dry-lined walls. Again, that differs from the usual UK masonry boxes we have to deal with that have minimal inherent low-freq. absorption.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunchy View Post
    I included cross section of the space looking to the right of the speakers. I dont doubt that it can be done but bear in mind all the electrical work that is existing up there plus the AC ducts that are running through and all the insulation, not to mention all the clg. joists that would have to be cut
    Yes, looks nasty. If you got it wrong the roof may cave in

    Also, just re-read the thread properly and picked-up on you note about sound insulation. Looking at the plan, you only have one common wall the rest of the house. For that wall, I would install a sepaarte timber stud (spaced 1" from existing stud) and double plasterboard it. Use the insulation you removed from external walls to pack the new stud? You then have to deal with flanking paths through the roof and floor cavities (if they exist) Also, a double door sound lobby entrance would be nice but may be a bit over the top. A 60mm single hardwood timber door may be enough of an upgrade. What are the speakers again...did you replace 4430's with some big 43xx's or something???

    Also, I now realise this is a converted garage, I was wondering what sort of architect would build a room this big with only an 8ft ceiling. Installing "irregularities" with only a 2-3" drop will add some diffusion above say 1500Hz which is useful but you really need to get it working down to below 500Hz. For that you're talking about 8-12" drops which are not going to happen in that room.

    It is good that your listening postion will be "only" 12ft from the speakers. The closer you can get (within reason) will help to take away any negative room effects. Depending on the dispersion characteristics of the speakers, you may be able to locally treat the ceiling at the first reflection point, i.e. absorptive treatment half way between the speakers and listening position. As it's not your main living room, the boss may let you get away with something on the ceiling that looks a bit strange.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Morning Andy,
    Raising that ceiling is do-able, like I always tell people, you can do anything if you got the funds.
    Right now I dont know if I got the funds

    I did a sketch of the stud wall as you suggested, I could probably do it if I lay the new studs as in the drawing, otherwise I start encroaching into the room too much. Also, once I move that wall out I have to mind the plumbing lines that feed the baseboard heating in that room, its a very rare situation when you can do something in a home without impacting something else, its that friken onion theory. Assuming the plumbing isnt an issue I could probably fur out that wall, basically I would be adding another 3" of insulation material. Does it make a difference if the two insulation bats touch?
    Let me know what you think.

    The common wall is between the playroom and the kitchen and dining room, the bedrooms are at the opposite end of the house which is a plus. Prior to this work there was no door there so volume levels had to be...lets say... restrained, very hard to do Andy, very hard to do that and the heating issue were the main reasons for this renovation, it just had to be done. At the very least I can keep the wall depth as it is (with the new insulation) and just double up on the sheathing and with the door it should be a vast improvement over my previous situation.

    As for the speakers I will probably remove the 4430's and just leave the 4345's in there and add secondary speakers for the future surround system, I have a set of 4313B's I could call upon and a set of L15's for the sides, they would probably work out nicely since they are small.

    At least thats the game plan for now.
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  7. #22
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    That detail is perfect. I nominated a 25mm gap between the two sets of studs but in reality all you need is a clear gap between them so even 5mm is OK provided they don't touch anywhere across the wall. You will probably find the wall will outperform the flanking path thru the floor and ceiling now.

    The insulation can touch but it must only be placed into the cavity loosely.

    Also, by doing that wall differently to the other walls, in terms of the internal acoustics (not sound insulation), it will have different low-freq. absorption characteristics compared to the other three (external) walls. The different cavity size and weight of the wall linings means it will most likely have peak absorption at lower frequencies than the other surfaces. It is good to spread out the absorption peaks of the various surfaces as this will dampen room modes across a greater freq. range.

    If you had access to an accelerometer, you could test the various "peaks" of the room surfaces.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Good Deal Andy !
    If the plumbing isnt an issue Its a go! If I can do it I'll make sure the studs dont touch each other anywhere along the wall.
    The flanking path in the attic is probably pretty good since I insulated heavily up there.

    Thanks
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  9. #24
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    What exactly is next to this room? How did it sound before you ripped it apart.

    If you haven't got room for the separate stud, another option is to use a Resilient Bar attached directly to the existing stud (the wall linings are then attached to the Resilient Bar). At least that's what they're called in the UK. There must be something similar in the US??? We are always amazed at what these simple things do in tests (increase sound insulation by up to 5dB with <20mm extra thickness to wall).

    Resilient Bar.pdf


  10. #25
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Andy, see post 21 3rd paragraph.

    Resilient Bar, looks pretty interesting, so I guess it would be mounted between the two sheething panels.
    I couldnt do the 50mm battens between as per link.
    http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co....ng_rbars1.html
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  11. #26
    Senior Member hmolwitz's Avatar
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    Run some Cat 5 network cable in there before you button up those walls, I got a new Tivo and it is networked, the new gaming consoles are all networked, and everyone has a computer, I would recommend 4 drops... 2 cables per. Everyone is all excited about wireless... Till they have issues. Throughput, piracy, hardware failure, inherently unreliable and insecure.
    You do not even need to complete it, just have the wire and a blank plate for future use, leave a bunch spooled up in the basement that you can run to the router.
    You can run the phones over the cat 5 as well
    YMMV
    Harry

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmolwitz View Post
    Run some Cat 5 network cable in there before you button up those walls, I got a new Tivo and it is networked, the new gaming consoles are all networked, and everyone has a computer, I would recommend 4 drops... 2 cables per. Everyone is all excited about wireless... Till they have issues.
    100% true!

  13. #28
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Good Idea Harry, Will do! Gotta keep up with the technology
    Thank you!

    Edit

    Andy,
    No Deal on the common wall proposal, plumbing immovable and in the way
    it will have to be double-up on the sheething/sheetrock, oh well
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Hi Guys!
    Was wondering, can I use regular speaker cable to run up the walls into the attic and back down (for surround system) or would the in-wall/architectural speaker cable (the stuff with the grey insulation) be better suited for this application? does it even matter. the latter is certainly more economical?

    Thanks!
    Just Play Music.

  15. #30
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunchy View Post
    Hi Guys!
    Was wondering, can I use regular speaker cable to run up the walls into the attic and back down (for surround system) or would the in-wall/architectural speaker cable (the stuff with the grey insulation) be better suited for this application? does it even matter. the latter is certainly more economical?

    Thanks!
    If I have understood you correctly: I would not care so much about cables used for the surround speakers.

    I guess your processor has a setup with a microphone, and will make the signal delay right no matter how long the cables is. This is the way my processor does it.

    Of course the cable should be "ok", but I believe there isn't much improvement using "high quality" cables.

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