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Thread: PA Midrange Help

  1. #1
    Junior Member 2$Bill's Avatar
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    PA Midrange Help

    All:

    I am a PA used-to-be who is looking for additional thinking for a midrange speaker for a new system. Be it known that (1) I am not much of a woodworker and (2) I want to use stock on hand.

    The low end will be a pair of JBL AS1015-STD (2226Hs) and the high end be a pair of 2446Js on 2382As horns - initial thinking of crossing over at 300 and 1200 Hz. My midrange choices are one E120 (12") or a pair of 2118s (8") in closed boxes. Bass Box calculations (as much as I am capable of understanding) are basically equal.

    My concerns are that one E120 weighs more than a pair of 2118s, but the 2118s will need to be stacked horizontally as opposed to vertically (what I understand to be best).

    Of course, I want whatever will work best and sound best with the least amount of woodworking. Input will be greatly appreciated.
    2$Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2$Bill View Post
    All:

    I am a PA used-to-be who is looking for additional thinking for a midrange speaker for a new system. Be it known that (1) I am not much of a woodworker and (2) I want to use stock on hand.

    The low end will be a pair of JBL AS1015-STD (2226Hs) and the high end be a pair of 2446Js on 2382As horns - initial thinking of crossing over at 300 and 1200 Hz. My midrange choices are one E120 (12") or a pair of 2118s (8") in closed boxes. Bass Box calculations (as much as I am capable of understanding) are basically equal.

    My concerns are that one E120 weighs more than a pair of 2118s, but the 2118s will need to be stacked horizontally as opposed to vertically (what I understand to be best).

    Of course, I want whatever will work best and sound best with the least amount of woodworking. Input will be greatly appreciated.
    Not a PA guy but I use something similar for my home system except single drivers. I use a E110 but with a paper cap which I like a lot. Crossover 275/1200. I've experimented with the 2118 as well and found it also sounds "good" but is not as incisive, quick, transparent - "in your face" (I love in your face). Like they are standing there playing in the room - excellent for jazz. The 2118, by comparison, is more "pleasant," a lot of people would probably prefer it. Edges rounded slightly, not as ruthlessly transparent. Slightly "warm." But, for PA, I'd think you'd want the E120. I assume it's like the E110 only moreso; power capacity, efficiency, 4" voice coil. Sounds made for serious PA. Just one cat's thots! Good luck.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 4343's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannermusic View Post
    Not a PA guy but I use something similar for my home system except single drivers. I use a E110 but with a paper cap which I like a lot. ....
    That's what led to the 2223H, it's just a reconed E110, optimized for PA mid use. Slight rising response, which can be tamed with the right crossover. I used this one:

    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Te...4MkII%20ts.pdf
    Mike Scott in SJ, CA
    Drive 'em to the Xmax!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Why do you feel the need for a mid? Both woofer and horn would gladly meet at the +/- 1Khz area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike F View Post
    Why do you feel the need for a mid? Both woofer and horn would gladly meet at the +/- 1Khz area.
    http://www.google.nl/search?q=jbl+47...w=1053&bih=636
    There's a 46xx version too.
    www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Concert_Series.pdf

    I used to use those 4771's, they where great and would go SERIOUS loud, else I would suggest a 2206, in my opinion closest match sound wise to the 2226.

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    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    mids

    I have a boatload of 2123H's from a pair of theater installs - PM for a price...also some of the newer Nd 2250H 8" as used in the line array. Very light, powerful, frame is squared off and these HAVE an integral shell for isolation so you don't have to make a doghouse...

    I don't have any online source on the JBL site to tell me it's operating range but it should do 300 with little problem.

    The 2118 is way way under powered compared to the 15 and/or 2" and the paper cones on those tend to "fold" or crease right at the first rib up from the dustcap - can't tell you how many I have seen that failed that way. The coil is only 2" and the heat buildup is an issue.

    The E110 is a great speaker also but (A) it has an aluminum voice coil ( easier to open up under high power ) and an aluminum dustcap ( a bit harsh sometimes ) and the biggest reason: it is a sound "producer" - meant for electric instrumentation on stage.

    The 2123H is a sound "reproducer" - meant for playback systems and used where the coloration of the musical instrument types is not recommended.

    if you want another direction idea, I have a pair of MF/HF assemblies from a pair of 3115 install cabinets that are fully loaded and have crossovers... the 2119 / M209-8A was weatherized and the HF drivers are like new...

    http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AS%20Series/CS3115.pdf

    sub

  7. #7
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    ..........

    The E110 is a great speaker also but (A) it has an aluminum voice coil ( easier to open up under high power ) and an aluminum dustcap ( a bit harsh sometimes ) and the biggest reason: it is a sound "producer" - meant for electric instrumentation on stage.

    The 2123H is a sound "reproducer" - meant for playback systems and used where the coloration of the musical instrument types is not recommended.

    .........
    sub
    Hi SUBWOOF,

    It would be nice if you have any idea where can be found The Distortion measurements for E110 in correlation with the applied power. Owing to its construction of the VC-length and Top-Plate thickness, I can imagine that for not too high power, such driver can be used as mid-bass for the home listening, for sure without AL-dust cup.

    Regards
    Ivica

  8. #8
    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    color

    Most of the "distortion" can be attributed to the fact that the E110 voice coil will be driven out of the gap with little effort as compared to the 2123 which has a MUCH deeper coil. this over-emphasizes low volume use at the expense of large bursts which will be attenuated - perfect for guitar on stage but not PA / playback.

    it's called Xmax

    JBL does publish ( internally ) data sheets with those specs and *some* are in the tech library section on this site thanks to 4313B's effort but NOT all. I suggest you contact JBL and see if they can send one to you.

    see this thread:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...2121-2122-2123

  9. #9
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    Most of the "distortion" can be attributed to the fact that the E110 voice coil will be driven out of the gap with little effort as compared to the 2123 which has a MUCH deeper coil. this over-emphasizes low volume use at the expense of large bursts which will be attenuated - perfect for guitar on stage but not PA / playback.

    it's called Xmax

    JBL does publish ( internally ) data sheets with those specs and *some* are in the tech library section on this site thanks to 4313B's effort but NOT all. I suggest you contact JBL and see if they can send one to you.

    see this thread:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...2121-2122-2123
    Hi SUBWOOF,

    All the things you have mentioned are known to me, but owing to the fact that if E110 is used from over 300Hz, the cone movements are not too much, I can guess that less then 1mm Xmax, so owing to that and the coil size and large top-plate, I wonder that for about of up to 10W, which would be quite loud for home listening , may be the 2-nd and 3-rd distortions would not be too much. Unfortunately such data are not presented on any JBL official data, so if You, or any other know more abut, it would be interesting to be seen.
    My friend who has 4345 with 2122 installed, has told me that when he has tried k110 INSTEAD OF 2122, it had seamed him almost the same.

    Regards
    Ivica

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi SUBWOOF,

    All the things you have mentioned are known to me, but owing to the fact that if E110 is used from over 300Hz, the cone movements are not too much, I can guess that less then 1mm Xmax, so owing to that and the coil size and large top-plate, I wonder that for about of up to 10W, which would be quite loud for home listening , may be the 2-nd and 3-rd distortions would not be too much. Unfortunately such data are not presented on any JBL official data, so if You, or any other know more abut, it would be interesting to be seen.
    My friend who has 4345 with 2122 installed, has told me that when he has tried k110 INSTEAD OF 2122, it had seamed him almost the same.

    Regards
    Ivica
    Hi Ivica. Check out post #2 above. Thanks for the feedback on your friends 4345 experience. Verifies what I suspected.

    P.S. The rig above produces 90+ db @ 1 watt in my listening room. Would seem futile to compare home requirements to pro audio requirements. Two different Universes.

  11. #11
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mannermusic View Post
    Hi Ivica. Check out post #2 above. Thanks for the feedback on your friends 4345 experience. Verifies what I suspected.

    P.S. The rig above produces 90+ db @ 1 watt in my listening room. Would seem futile to compare home requirements to pro audio requirements. Two different Universes.
    Hi Mannermusic,

    Looking at the:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post319806

    I think that some HF-dumping has to be 'add' in the network in the E110 usage instead of appropriated one 2122/2123

    Regards
    Ivica

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi Mannermusic,

    Looking at the:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post319806

    I think that some HF-dumping has to be 'add' in the network in the E110 usage instead of appropriated one 2122/2123

    Regards
    Ivica
    Agree!

  13. #13
    Senior Member Baron030's Avatar
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    Hi 2$Bill
    I have been meaning to respond to this thread for some time now. Some of the components that you are thinking of using for your PA project are actually in my home stereo system. So, I can offer some advice. If you really want to use crossover points of 300Hz to 1200Hz then a 12” driver may be the better way to go (2206H or 2262H). The 8” or 10” drivers that are being suggested will actually perform better with a slightly higher crossover point of 400Hz or above. In my own system, I use a 2012H driver, which is not at all popular around here because it does require equalization to get it to sound right. But, the 2012H driver is actually a very good driver. It’s very clean sounding and it can handle a lot of power. But, I can only recommend it, provided that you using a graphic equalizer or possibly use the following passive EQ network with a tri-amped system.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...20823-4345-DIY (Post # 3)

    And the main reason why I am suggesting the 2206H or 2262H driver is that it gives you the freedom of going with much lower crossover point, which would put more of the vocal range into the midrange driver. And fundamentally, the point of adding a midrange driver is to reduce intermodulation distortion and to reduce power compression within the 2226H woofers by re-directing some of the PA systems power into a midrange driver. And the higher power handling characteristics of a 2206H or 2262H would be a better choice than the E120, from a power compression point of view.

    Without getting to far off the subject, the 2446/2382a combination does roll off pretty abruptly at 10 KHz. So, I would recommend that you add a UHF driver to your system.

    Baron030

  14. #14
    Junior Member 2$Bill's Avatar
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    Thank You!

    Thank you to all who have replied.

    Most of my initial thinking came from viewing JBL product lines. The why of a midrange at all comes from JBL, in both consumer and pro lines, use of a cone midranges in so many systems. I always figured JBL knew more than me.

    The 300 and 1200 Hz crossover points came from Drew Daniels' use of those frequencies for his crossover points with 2123s.

    Obviously I have not made any decisions, so I am still open to continued discussion.

    Again, thank you for everyone's experiences,

    Bill
    2$Bill

  15. #15
    Junior Member 2$Bill's Avatar
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    2380A Horn

    "Without getting to far off the subject, the 2446/2382a combination does roll off pretty abruptly at 10 KHz. So, I would recommend that you add a UHF driver to your system."

    I also have a 2380A horn. From a non-engineer stand point, I have been weighing the +/-s of using the 2382A or the 2380A.

    Thanks,

    Bill
    2$Bill

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