How can it be? Japan has all the REAL JBL speakers...

[BMWCCA]

Cars and audio are like apples and tuna. I have dozens of clients who drive cars that cost over $100K, and with few exceptions none have speakers that cost over $1K. They may have $800 speakers in 12 rooms, but they just don't want big brown boxes. Even the ones who do have expensive speakers, typically own the types of "audiophile" speakers that many forum members detest.

Apples and Tuna? Which proves what? Sure, and there are probably several here who spend $4k for huge old monitors and yet drive crap-wagons to the Super Wal-Mart. I see it all the time with owners of old Italian exotics; their hobby gets fed before the kids or their cars. And yet auto manufacturers still sell new product. Even with recession and disgusting fuel prices. BMW had it's biggest May sales volume ever in the USA last month. JBL can't sell a particle-board box with three speakers in it here, like they sell in Japan? Face it, they've forgotten how to market their product. Don't blame it on iPods, that's a lament for record-store owners.

[Mr. Widget]

Apples and Tuna? Which proves what?

I see it all the time with owners of old Italian exotics; their hobby gets fed before the kids or their cars.

Even with recession and disgusting fuel prices. BMW had it's biggest May sales volume ever in the USA last month.

You answered your own question. More Americans have a love affair with cars than with hi-fi.

But as I said, my data is only anecdotal. However I am surprised you are having such a hard time seeing my point that a small fraction of a tiny market is just too insignificant for the bean counters to care about. Now, if JBL were run by enthusiasts they would be tripping over themselves to sell those 10 pairs of speakers to like minded folks, but once you leave Northridge and get to the corporate offices, you won't find enthusiasts in many key positions.


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[BMWCCA]

I am surprised you are having such a hard time seeing my point that a small fraction of a tiny market is just too insignificant for the bean counters to care about. Now, if JBL were run by enthusiasts they would be tripping over themselves to sell those 10 pairs of speakers to like minded folks, but once you leave Northridge and get to the corporate offices, you won't find enthusiasts in many key positions.

Oh I understand, but you're implying there's some rational behavior here I don't understand. I insist it's irrational to make a speaker here, sell it elsewhere, but make no attempt to tap even a small market they just might find here if they even tried to. It costs nothing. What are we, China? Mexico? The low-cost producer of products sold to wealthier countries? I understand bean-counters, and that's exactly the point (on which we seem to agree); that JBL has no marketing balls anymore. Might as well get sucked up like Altec and become just a name stuck on Chinese crap. All for lack of trying. Sad. I feel sorry for those great guys who work their butts off there trying to make something to be proud of.

I'm not asking for them to create a whole new product line, for chrissakes. Just to sell what they already make. Isn't there some value to additional sales of an existing product? Economies of scale? They need to go back to school.

If there's no market for big expensive speakers (and I'm not talking five-figures, but only four), then why when I visit my local Crutchfield store do I find tons of towers, some nearly 5-feet tall, with bunches of small woofers, and piles of subwoofers, from Klipsch, Mirage, and Polk? Why does a smart guy like Bill Crutchfield dabble in $7,000-a-side Thiel (sound like crap) speakers? He didn't become one of the wealthiest guys in the state wasting time on unprofitable ventures. There must be a market out there. You need not only to know how to reach it, you also have to try.

[porschedpm]

..... The fact is, if there was a market for these types of speakers someone would be filling it and they would be available. It wouldn't be long before JBL would be getting calls from the few remaining audio dealers asking to sell big JBLs again.

You make a very important point, Widget. There are many, many entrepreneurs in the US and worldwide looking for profit opportunities. If the potential to sell Japanese Market JBL's was great enough, you can be sure someone or some company would be exploiting it. A good example is the new SMART car. Mercedes didn't think it worth their while to import the car to the US. Penske however thought there would be enough of a market, saw a profit opportunity and took advantage of it. If enough profit potential exists, someone will be there to tap it.

[Mr. Widget]

A good example is the new SMART car.

Dammit... you got me there with an excellent car analogy.


Bottom line as far at this thread goes. It is rather pointless for us to sit back and speculate on what makes sense and what doesn't in the US market. I am happy for the engineers at JBL who have had the opportunity to design and build exciting systems even if the average Joe here in the States never knew they even existed. As bad as that may seem if they didn't have the Japanese market there wouldn't be an Everest, K2, Everest II or any of the other large horn based systems that have been designed and manufactured in Southern California continuing the Lansing Legacy.

As far as the gripe about US made products being designed for export... with our trade imbalance it is too bad that more companies haven't been able to find their own overseas niche markets. JBL is manufacturing less and less in the US and even their Statement system the DD66000 isn't an entirely US made product. The days of JBL producing their speakers entirely in house are long gone.


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[merlin]

Ever since the term "high end" was first used in the eighties in relation to expensive American audio exotica, it has struck me that the term refers as much to appearance as to actual sonics.

Typical High End ( McIntosh, Levinson, Krell, AR, ) sounds nice looks good. Sonically it's easily bettered by a number of smaller brands from around the world, but they don't appeal to "high end " customers due to their lack of extruded brushed aluminum or blue lights. Same with speakers. The high end is made up of speakers designed first and foremost to look visually attractive - secondly to make a decent stab at accurate replay.

Japan is IME so far ahead of this High End product that it's laughable. It's fitting that a country that still cares about sound quality enjoys the delights of Tannoy DC's and large format monitors.

[4345]

I nominate BMWCCA for the board of Harman. I agree with all you are saying. Revel, Array Series, etc. all not my cup of tea and does not help solidify JBL's reputation. They need a classic line with rectangular big boxes and walnut veneer.

Sure the market may not be big for a high end classic line, but according to 4313, they are losing money now. I wonder how much? So, they certainly have very little to lose. The classic line would cost very little to produce and stay in production a long time.

[Ian Mackenzie]

My understanding is American cars (or should I say cars purchased in America) are quite cheap by gobal standards and we are talking millions of cars.

The key to car sales like so many other key purchase decisions is distribution. You cannot easily mail order a car unless someone is prepared to drive it to your door step. Unfortunately even if you are a multinational that does not buy you real estate or shelf space in a dealers show room.

The 3 important keys to marketing strategy are market segmentation, entry and timing.

Here is a USA based loudspeaker firm who has carefully assessed their marketing strategy and they are growing.

http://www.zuaudio.com/zu_contact_usa.htm

Within the USA they market direct out of their warehouse and via selected importers in overseas locations. You can actually buy on line.

Without actually asking them its reasonable to assume they figured local distribution would not work for them. Probably a combination of marketing costs in distribution, tight margins via wholesalers and retailors, employing a sales rep and patchy volume because of other competing brands eroding channel market share. Specialty manufacturers are also more cautious about how their product is sold.

Above the line marketing is via online magazines like 6moons.com where they have numerous awards and a strong presence at trade shows.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu/druid.html


The situation at JBL is a lot more complex but the principles are the same

Today they have lots of different businesses in different markets which is a very different situation to how JBL was placed in the 70's and a I dare say it comes down to economics. If the clock was turned forward on the 70's era to the times we live in now they would probably be doing something along the lines of Zuaudio in the hifi market if in fact they were still in business.

[BMWCCA]

My understanding is American cars (or should I say cars purchased in America) are quite cheap by gobal standards and we are talking millions of cars.

No V.A.T. for starters. And that many, if not most, "import" labels are built here, or in Mexico, or Canada. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, VW, Mercedes, BMW all build vehicles in North America for sale here. Heck, we don't even charge import duty on most vehicles not made here, and offer multiple loop-holes for avoiding what tariffs we do have in-place to the extent that Range Rovers were once (maybe still) imported as "cars" to avoid the truck import duty, while sold as "trucks" to avoid EPA requirements and "gas guzzler" tax. But remember, we're still using tax dollars in the USA to subsidize our oil companies! And it was only a couple of years ago we paid out tax refunds of tens-of-thousands-of-dollars each to people who purchased vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings of over 6,000 pounds, and used them for business", because . . . well, apparently because Republicans like to drive Chevy Suburban SUVs. (BMW took the hint and listed the GVWR for their X5 SAV at 6,001-pounds!) We even once had in place an import tariff on motorcycles over 1,000-CCs to protect domestic Harley-Davidson production and sales....

Physical location and dealerships are only important for cars since they require regular service, warranty repairs, and government regulations require that adequate parts stock and availability be maintained for a reasonable time period after production. None of this is required for speaker sales, as Harman has shown in their large on-line presence with direct sales and eBay clearances.

The Smart car is an anomaly. It's not that economical, performs terribly as a highway car, and has a poor suspension for in-town use. But it's cute and trendy. Mercedes didn't import the original Smart/A-class car because it was even worse, had safety issues, and wasn't up to quality standards. Penske didn't care about that and took a short-term view. The fact that the Smart car sells well now has little to do with economy or value and much to do with buyers wishing to make a visual statement of "green" concern to a public that is generally ignorant of what "green" is or what alternatives exist. My kids' '98 BMW 318ti regularly returns 36-mpg, carries four or five people, has a huge trunk, gets out of its own way, offers BMW-like safety and durability, and can cruise at 90-mph all day long.

Regardless, the JBL products we're discussing in this thread are already made here in the USA, JBL already has name recognition and distribution, and there really is no excuse for not making everything they make here available to consumers in the USA. Won't happen, but it's been fun talking about it like our opinion really mattered.

[robertbartsch]

OK, well I bought some JBL home towers a few years ago.


....TOTAL junk IMO.


Do these new consumer products from JBL have square ribbon VCs and Alnico V magnets? Judging from the mediocore sound, I don't think so...

Anyway, I've worked M&A in business for >10 years and I have seen what happens to companies that are bought and re-sold numerous times by private equity firms.... This transforms them into worthless pieces of junk. Unfortunately, I suspect that has happened here.

Hey, look what happened to Altec; they made some marketing missteps but they did not deserve to die a slow painful death either.

JBL still has a lock on the cinema and concert sound equipment market, but this could change also.

[4313B]

JBL still has a lock on the cinema and concert sound equipment market, but this could change also.

Rumor is that Pro is changing too. We'll see in the next year or two what happens with the new CEO in charge.

[Valentin]

Rumor is that Pro is changing too. We'll see in the next year or two what happens with the new CEO in charge.

Please tell us more about this rumor

of topic

do you have the tech sheets for the c500g midrage driver

[oznob]

http://www.alteclansing.com/index.ph...iproduct_id=a7

I'm wondering if it would be possible for JBL/Harman to do "made to order" classic designs? Plantronics has done this with the Altec A-7 and others. Klipsch will build some of their classic speakers to order. My thought is the offerings initially should be based on past sales or current popularity of older designs. They could limit the offerings initially to a couple of speaker models to see if their is enough interest to continue the line. This could be done on an interim basis to gauge interest. I think there is a market for the 21st century edition of the L100, L200, L300.........

[BMWCCA]

I think there is a market for the 21st century edition of the L100, L200, L300.........

Well, maybe the L300.

But don't forget the 44xx that are driving the Japanese renaissance of JBL. And the "mini" monitors, too.

[Rolf]

Hi all.

After reading the comments, made one myself earlier in the thread, I believe the brand is slowly but surly going down.

It's been a long time since JBL has made a speaker that can compete with with other of today's speakers in the same price range.

The "old" ones is still keeping up with many of them, but JBL don't want to make it like that anymore.

When the day comes and there is no more re-cone kits available for my speakers I am probably to old to care, or I buy something else. In the mean time I will enjoy the sound I like so much.