Altec Model 19 First Impressions

[Ian Mackenzie]

I took would like to hear some more comparisons between Model 19's and 846B Valencias.... I've had several pairs of 19's in the past, and now have a pair of 846B's, with another pair on the way. My impression is that the bass on the 19's is superb, and on the 846B's, also, perhaps tighter, but a close 2nd in extension. Although it's been awhile, my 19's always sounded harsh through the upper mids and lower highs (no matter how I adjusted the pads on the crossovers - and I was even temtped to change the crossovers to 1285's or 8500's at 500 hz to try to overcome this, but never did), but the 846B's I have do not seem to have this harshness, and also seem to be more detailed in the mids and highs. (I am getting a "hashy" overlay on massed strings, etc., in many recordings, but his may be an example of "garbage in - garbage out" due to the accuracy of the speakers. Please, anyone seing this, give me your thoughts...I haven't posted here before and am not sure I'm doing it correctly.....Thanks!

Also, I think the lower crossover point in the 846B' may be a factor in the mid-range detail, as I never liked the idea of a 1200 hz crossover, as in the 19's ....

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-8a/page03.jpg

I can think of alot of reasons why you may refer one model over the other

Assuming you are referring to the 9846 series they were true monitors made before Altec ran into quality issues. The model 19 was a Consumer system introduced much later on.

As the other suggest get GPA to look at the compression drivers.

Don also had problems in that department and from what I recall was never really taken with the 19's.

[Ducatista47]

Last year I had a chance to hear a pair of 19's, nicely restored, while different program material and amplification were tried. It was quickly determined that they were virtually unlistenable with solid state. We were sure that a nice vintage Scott tube amp would do the trick. It was the right era and was not overly powerful. Still, they only sounded decent with one CD we tried, a Pretenders offering of all things. Even vinyl was a non starter.

They gave up for the day, but some time later I was told they finally sounded pretty good. An old set of Dynaco's, 35's I think, did the trick. The treble attenuation control could even be turned back to a normal position. Amplification is critical for these super efficient but generally harsh sounding classics.

For what it is worth, Dynaco 35's and the modern reproductions available have always sounded better to me on vintage JBL's, and many other speakers, than almost any other amp I have heard. I don't care anymore how they measure, they really do the trick. Vintage Altec's and JBL's are very efficient and do not benefit from big power. They need a really good first watt. An 8-20 watt amp is plenty. Even the little 4311 is in this category, certainly needing no more than that 35 (17 1/2 per channel). Any amp without a transparent first watt will not bring such speakers to anywhere near their potential.

Do the calculations yourself if you want; unless you play really loud the first watt is almost everything you will hear. On the Nineteens, for sure.

Clark

[altecspkrs]

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-8a/page03.jpg

I can think of alot of reasons why you may refer one model over the other

Assuming you are referring to the 9846 series they were true monitors made before Altec ran into quality issues. The model 19 was a Consumer system introduced much later on.

As the other suggest get GPA to look at the compression drivers.

Don also had problems in that department and from what I recall was never really taken with the 19's.

Thanks Ian, This explains why the 846B's seem more analytical to me.
I equalixed the 2K hz. band with a 4 db cut, as elsewhere suggested, to some advantage.....I will see if the pair of 846B's I have coming in a few days exhibit the same sound characteristics.... Thanks all .....

[Zilch]

Somebody PLEASE tell me what 9846 with a different woofer, different HF driver, and different HF driver have to do with M19 and 846B....

[altecspkrs]

Yeah, That's right, the pro 9846's used Altec's 411 "acoustic suspension" woofer, and had consumer conterparts in the Barcelona and Santiago..... The Santiago did incorporate the 811B horn and 806-8A or B h.f. driver, crossing over ar 800 hz., all similar to the 846B, however, so there have to be some similarities in the mids and highs...I did have a pair of Santiiagos for awhile, but the woofers had been reconed, perhaps not correctly, and the bass did not seem as dynamic as the 846B's with 416's...never was able to give them a real listening audition, as I have with the 846B's....Thanks to all....

[analog addict]

I have tried a lot of different combinations with my 19's, and have really taken a liking to the current one....

GE 7189A's and 5 star 5751's in a Stromberg Carlson ASR-433, Pioneer Elite DVD/CDP DV-38A and an old SS Kenny KT-6005 tuner....

Magic!...

The 19's have 802-8G's and 416-B's, along with recapped (Solens) crossovers. Even using a 'sui 9090db or a Kenny KR-9600, the bass has never sounded so solid and full, and the mids and highs so rich. There's no doubt in my mind that the 19's don't really come into thier own until you add a little vacuum to them....

And yes that is my 12'x12' dining room. Good thing my wife doesn't like it, 'cause I've definitely found another use for it....

[John]

There's no doubt in my mind that the 19's don't really come into thier own until you add a little vacuum to them....

Try a mid 70's solid state Marantz, 100 watts and above and I think you might like it.

[Ducatista47]

I have tried a lot of different combinations with my 19's, and have really taken a liking to the current one....

GE 7189A's and 5 star 5751's in a Stromberg Carlson ASR-433, Pioneer Elite DVD/CDP DV-38A and an old SS Kenny KT-6005 tuner....

Magic!...

That sounds like a world class tube compliment. It must sound stunning. That would be a great example of a transparent first watt.

From John:

Try a mid 70's solid state Marantz, 100 watts and above and I think you might like it

I have owned and used mid 70's SS Marantz amps, and I respectfully disagree. Their first watt, which is about all you will hear in that room without bringing out the mickey mouse ear protectors, is not high quality. You can't ask a powerful transistor amp to function without a pretty good dose of negative feedback to smooth out its problems, and these are no exception. The first watt audibly suffers. First watt aside, of what possible use is the last 90 watts? For breaking glass or eardrums? The Model 19 is 99-102dB, shelving dependent, per watt at four feet. A decent 7189A amp will have way more than enough headroom and is crystal clear from .01 to six watts single ended and much more push-pull.

Clark

[John]

From John:I have owned and used mid 70's SS Marantz amps, and I respectfully disagree. Their first watt, which is about all you will hear in that room without bringing out the mickey mouse ear protectors, is not high quality. You can't ask a powerful transistor amp to function without a pretty good dose of negative feedback to smooth out its problems, and these are no exception. The first watt audibly suffers. First watt aside, of what possible use is the last 90 watts? For breaking glass or eardrums? The Model 19 is 99-102dB, shelving dependent, per watt at four feet. A decent 7189A amp will have way more than enough headroom and is crystal clear from .01 to six watts single ended and much more push-pull.

Clark

Hi Clark is that what you use for your 4345's, A 6 watt amp

Also just wondering what actual Marantz amps are you talking about from the mid 70's

[Ducatista47]

Hi, John,

My apologies, I think I am getting too contentious and should just shut up! This getting old thing stinks and I must have had a rotten personality to begin with.

I am very familiar with the 1180DC and used the 1152DC exclusively for many years. These are integrated amps. The bigger amps I heard on other people's systems when I was visiting friends and occasionally borrowed them. Yes, I had fallen in with a bunch of Marantz heads. The reason I could hear what I heard about their first watt is Stax headphones, truth machines if ever there were any. The speakers of the day, and I was using big DIY's even then, used past the first watt and lacked the resolving power at low power levels to delve into such affairs. The Stax electrostatics, which I still use, are so revealing that I have yet to fail to hear the shortcomings and strengths of electronics and sources with them. They use speaker, not headphone outputs and draw as much or more power than most speakers I have used. If you are curious why that is so, they are driven at several hundred volts.

The amps were fine for what I/we were using them for, but when better things came along I could hear the difference. I now use speakers where the first watt's quality is vital, so at this point it even matters!

The 4345's? Biamped with rebuilt, upgraded crossovers of much higher resolving power and lower loss than the originals. The 2245H's (95dB/watt/m in these cabinets) are run direct from the amp and have no insertion losses from the sixty available tube watts per channel. The top gets at least ten clean watts/channel if it wants, but at 98dB/watt/m a quarter watt is pretty loud. That leaves a lot of headroom. And yes, I have calibrated the pads so they are at minimum positions to yield the required balance.

I have a theory that the JBL low power white paper http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf(written in the days when their large monitors were being routinely used at insane volumes and needed many, many watts of clean headroom to survive) is responsible for the perceived "need" for big power. The fact is, not many people play their JBL's at home with the Pete Townsend studio playback volumes. He has trouble hearing these days, and so would anyone else who did likewise. SAEMAN - Rick - likes to crank it up sometimes, but when he does I doubt he is running over three, maybe six watts continuous. I have heard this at his place. Give a X10 headroom and that would be 30 to 60 clean watts needed, tops. I suspect much less, I am being very conservative here.

So...the need for a hundred or several hundred watts of power for home use of efficient speakers, as opposed to SR which would wreck them anyway, is a myth. It adds sex appeal to the system for some, but good big amps simply don't sound as good as good smaller amps within their power ranges. Thirty years of using the Stax-o-meter has never failed to reveal the fact of that. One exception might be the products of Nelson Pass, but no personal experience here. Those are FET, not bipolar in any case and have far fewer technology inherent sonic problems to overcome in the first place. Even Nelson has found he can build a better sounding five or ten watt amp than a hundred watt and up amp. He and everyone else have also found that high power and single ended class A do not mix, at least in the practical world. If you have not tried that way, to quote Al Jolson, "You ain't heard nothin' yet."

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

The fact is, not many people play their JBL's at home with the Pete Townsend studio playback volumes.

I found it interesting reading between the lines on the thread "How Loud..." it would seem that most of us listen to music in the upper 80dB to mid 90dB range. I, like SAEMAN, will on occasion turn it up, but 99% of the time when I am really listening the sound rarely peaks above the low to mid 90s. There are those, myself included that have to turn it down when others are sleeping etc., but I would consider that the exception and not the rule even if it occurs often. The point being, there seems to be a comfortably "Loud" level that the vast majority of us listen to.

Most of us with these systems will achieve these SPLs with far under 10 watts, and I do agree with Ducatista that the first watt bit is quite important in critical listening. In my system, I have used a variety of large SS high power amps on the bass and it seems to work best, but for my mids where I typically only use milliwatts, even a very high quality high power amp sounds less "open" than a low power class A design. I have had excellent results with a SET tube amp as well as one of Nelson's "First Watt" low power amps that Ducatista mentioned.

However, if you aren't really critically listening and have never heard the difference, it is unlikely that you will miss it and a large Crown or Marantz or whatever will probably be quite satisfying.

On another discussion board, we were recently discussing "blind testing", and while people's ability to pick different interconnects and CD players was no better than random chance, in comparing several high quality amps, the lower watt Class A amp was preferred by 90% of the participants over the other amps.


Widget

[John]

Hi Clark and Widget

As always very intresting view's and comment's.

But to keep things in perspective, I thought someone was complaining about a harsh upper midrange and HF on the model 19. So I threw out the Marantz.

I guess I was just keeping things simple.

I have no experiance with the DC stuff from Marantz, plus that stuff is not from the mid 70's more like 79-80 just before the company died. I had a 1150 in 1975 and then bumped up to the 1250 in 1977. The 1150 was ok at 75 a channel but the 1250 was rated at 125 a side and actually could hit about 160 per side before it clipped. Now maybe I am full of it but that 1250 was magical compared to the 1150. It almost had tube like qualities on the top end, to my ears anyway. As well as that quick solid bass note that a SS is good at. Oh and I have heard big Marantz recievers as well but they just did not seem to be on the same level as there intergrated amps from the same era.

By the way did anyone notice this thread started over 4 years ago?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Nice room but those Bose 901/s?

I dont think a particular amp is going to be a bandaid for a problem in a loudspeaker.Rolling off the hgh's or masking the whole sound with 2nd harmonic distortion will however make it more listenable to a point.

Those smaller high quality amps will however thing out the best in a biamped two way.

In my own experience the a/b/c or blind test is for most lay listeners is complete nonsense.

Its true what you have never heard you will never miss.

Why? Listeners all have difference expieriencial history and levels of education.

Those they have used to midfi levels of reproduction have a scene where the ear/brain compensates and fills in the gaps so historically they learn to live with it.

Shove a nice SE SS amp or a valve amp in there and they might say Gee wize live those bottles but I prefer my Flame Linear.

Why? I went through his 10-15 years ago. I was not until I diversifed my listeninng and began a re education buy hearing at length a number of other systems I began to appreciate the virtues of things like class A


There are a lot of other aspects to this but there you are.

The best thing you can do with these system discussed above is marry them up with something "fit for the purpose". You cannot make a silk purse out of a sour's ear as they say.

If you want to make real advance talk to GPA. These driver's are held in high esteem and some even seem them hair to the Tad throne.

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

My own take on the high volume levels it that again its a learned response or experiencial thing.

Loud volume is like a drug, but it can be dangerous to your hearing.

Oddly enough the craving for higher levels is often in the quest for resolution and details.

Most of the bigger Altec and JBL system will get you in the ballpark of almost life like levels without appreciable distortion and little power compression.

So that is going on? Well something is missing? Its the refinement, nuance and ambiance that technologies like Beryillium bring to the table.

People have been known to even bypass their eleborate graphic Eq after appreciating what a true high resolution audio system is capable of.

Biamping with a muscle amp on the woofer and a nice little amp on the horns makes perfect sense.

Those big old system with one door stoppor old amp sure go loud but those totally miss the First Watt as Clark said.

Ian

[John]

The best thing you can do with these system discussed above is marry them up with something "fit for the purpose". You cannot make a silk purse out of a sour's ear as they say.

Ian

That is what I was trying to suggest with the Marantz, same era and most likely similar voicing.

Keeping it simple,