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Thread: 5235 Mod

  1. #16
    scorpio
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    BB 4134

    I build an active crossover using this chip about 10 years ago

    That chip is actually quite coloured compared to say the OP 275

    But any mass produced chip on a die is not going to perform as well as a discrete mininalist buffer. I found such chips lacked true resolving power and dynamics.

    This is why most active crossovers degrade audiophile performance.

    You might gain a bit of bass damping on systems like the 4344 but it otherwise downgrades the signal from the program source using hi end components

    The thing is with most garden variety power amps this loss of quality introduced by an active crossover may not be particularly noticeable.

    Its a case of using like with like quality
    Well, it still sounds rather good to me. I'll keep my garden variety amp with this inferior crossover rather than go back to the same amp with the passive network, as someone else rightfully says over here 'it'a all relative'.

    PS; and I'm starting to get itchy of your recent bout of aggressive/negative comments towards the 'less knowledgeable' when I used to really enjoyed your contributions in the past. Some of us have limited budget and are still on the learning curve to make the best out of what they have, and eager to do so. These remarks wont help. That's it, i emptied my comment bag and won't post no more on this subject, I don't want the thread to derail into an argument.

    Mods - feel free to erase if not appropriate,

    Cheers,

  2. #17
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    Thumbs up Delighted with upgrades to 5235

    With its absence of multiple gain and other signal degrading controls, the simplicity of the 5235 should not be maligned. I have 4430 speakers powered through a 5235 by 2 x Naim 130 amplifiers (recently upgraded by Avondale Audio UK to their stage 4) for the LF and 1 x Naim 160 for the HF.

    The 5235 has been upgraded ‘a la jblbgw man’ with OPA627 opamps and Phillips caps. I am delighted with the results over the standard 5235 and believe I am now getting some of the 3D effects to the soundstage that I had previously only heard the 4430 was capable of. Of course the Remy Martin helps! Very many thanks to jblbgw man.

    While my system with Linn LP12, moderately upgraded, DVD transport and custom-built tube DAC, is not in the upper reaches if Hifi it is certainly not Lofi.

    The biggest problem I have currently is with the external / internal crossover switch on the 4430’s and the lack of technical knowledge and/or confidence to dismantle the speakers to get at the internal crossover to clean. (At this time I would like to upgrade the internal crossover and charge-couple as has been recommended previously on this forum). This has to be my next task to have this fixed after which I would like to introduce more tubes perhaps by way of a buffer, or even tube external crossover, and/or tube amp for HF.

    One of the best and cost-effective upgrades I have found for any system is to install a dedicated mains supply, preferably with a separate supply for source equipment and another for power amplifiers. IMHO this should be the first upgrade for any system.

  3. #18
    scorpio
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    Interesting mix Tony, Naim's are not very often seen used with JBL, my only experince of them is in full Naim systems or mixed with Linn.

    I don't know how far you'd like to get with upgrading your passive filter, but I played with a standard topology 3106 crossover between my mid and tweeter, then changed it to CC and the difference is not subtle, it is also a clear improvement. Sometimes I really wished I had started with two identical systems and kept one unmodified, just to be able to assess the cumulative impact of all the improvements, you tend to get used more easily to improvements than to worsening!

    If you take your time, read what is on here, ask questions when needed, you cannot go really wrong, there is a lot to reap.

  4. #19
    scorpio
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    One more thing, I just bought a new high quality multiple mains outlet, and I'm currently shopping for mains cable to connect those direct to the utility unit - so it seems I'm on sync with your proposed first upgrade! It will take a few weeks to complete though.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
    Well, it still sounds rather good to me. I'll keep my garden variety amp with this inferior crossover rather than go back to the same amp with the passive network, as someone else rightfully says over here 'it'a all relative'.

    PS; and I'm starting to get itchy of your recent bout of aggressive/negative comments towards the 'less knowledgeable' when I used to really enjoyed your contributions in the past. Some of us have limited budget and are still on the learning curve to make the best out of what they have, and eager to do so. These remarks wont help. That's it, i emptied my comment bag and won't post no more on this subject, I don't want the thread to derail into an argument.

    Mods - feel free to erase if not appropriate,

    Cheers,
    Knowledge : I suggest you use the search engine

    I have covered all this ground in numerous threads with other members and there is nothing negative about it when taken in context of such.

    The point is your improvements are valid but must be taken in consideration of a much large picture.

    For exampe we found that an upgraded 4343 to a 4344 sounded better overall run directly from a Passlabs X 150 (or a X250 I dont recall the specifics) than via an active crossover. It took some convincing to ask the particular member to try this but when he did he stayed up all night.

    A full discrete class A active crossover was later built and it was regarded as close to nirvana by the user. Other people have used the Bryston active crossovers with similar experiences.

    I would point out I have never paid (a lot) for the hi end stuff I posses and have built most of it.


    Have a look at this http://www.ska-audio.com/Forum/YaBB....mpage=products

    I have ordered the active crossover kit to build and try out.

    High quality need not be expensive


    As to tweaking and upgrading its a bit like the ultimate cd player thread with people upgrading play stations and as you would expect the guy who does his own upgrades is always going to claim they make a big difference. Then a guy with a $5000 player enters the discussion and says maybe but this a better.

    Both have every right to feel the wow factor just dont expect everyone to share your expectations. One guy spent a year replacing every chip and capacitor in his Westlake crossovers and remarked about the improvement. He then finally did something completely different and proclaimed it was better again and so it goes on.

    I spent a long time tweaking chip based gear, preamps, crossovers and other stuff and I know its fun.

    But then I discovered hghly biased class A designs. There simply is no comparison.

  6. #21
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Gentlemen ….. I only ever started this thread as an inexpensive, easy, quick upgrade to the 5235 which does provide substantial sonic improvement to the 5235. I have never held the mod out to be the be all and end all of mods …. Just quick and easy, but since the inception I have been bagged.

    When judging JBL crossovers don’t ever get the 5234 and the 5235 confused, they are totally different beasts, different topologies and different chips. I have posted elsewhere where I find it mind boggling that people will slam the 5235 but praise other makes of crossovers, but when you analyse the schematics of the other cross over’s the topologies are either identical or technically inferior and these are current designs, where as the 5235 is an early 80’s design …. But again they slam the 5235 but praise the others …. Go figure !!

    This is a JBL forum, I use it for discussing JBL products and DIY improvements, and it’s fast becoming an elitist stomping ground for Nelson Pass and 4345 devotee’s …… To be honest I’m getting sick of hearing Nelson Pass’s name on this JBL site ……. If you guys want to sing the praises of Nelson Pass and his gear I suggest you keep it for the DIYAudio forum or start up your own Pass Labs Forum where you can mix with like minded devotees.

    Not unlike some on here I am time poor, but …. I certainly do not lack the technical expertise or knowledge to carry out these mods and redesign stuff, it’s just when you do it for a living it sort of wears thin after a while and other things take priority in life…… like life itself.

    I happen to like BGW stuff, always have and always will but I don’t go around bagging other peoples stuff and singing the praises of BGW and taking cheap shots, I don’t have the defect in my character to need to feel superior to anybody, unlike some Nelson Pass devotee’s who do this at every opportunity to mention that they set the standard on this site.

    As mentioned before with the 4430/4435 I happen to think it is important to keep the same filter characteristics (i.e. same voltage and same phase response as the 52-5130 network cards) as what the system designer intended as I don’t profess to know more than the JBL design engineers. I have tried the 4435’s with standard LR 24/12dB slopes but always end up going back to the 5235 with correct filter slopes as this sounds more natural. I am looking at redesigning the 5235 pcb using discrete class A op amps but retaining the 4430/4435 filter characteristics, keeping the pcb the same size as the 5235 so it can easily be retrofitted into the 5235 chassis but by the sounds of it, this wouldn’t be good enough for some of you because it won’t have Pass Labs or Bryston stamped on the chassis.

    Unlike some I don’t have endless amounts of money to pour into a self indulging hobby anymore so I make the most of what I have and I am happy with what I have, as humble as a system it might be to the elitists but I am happy, now who else can honestly say that.

    Now moderators …. If you wish to pull my post again then that’s fine I have no problem with that but if you do it this time then take one step further and delete my membership and all my posts as well please.

    To the few of you that have done the upgrade I am happy that I could in such a small way help you to attain an improvement in your systems, this satisfies me immensely.
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
    2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.

  7. #22
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    Direct Mains Supply

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
    One more thing, I just bought a new high quality multiple mains outlet, and I'm currently shopping for mains cable to connect those direct to the utility unit - so it seems I'm on sync with your proposed first upgrade! It will take a few weeks to complete though.
    I reckon you will be very pleasantly surprised by the result which will improve further as your new cable burns-in. I used 10.2 guage cable.

  8. #23
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post

    One of the best and cost-effective upgrades I have found for any system is to install a dedicated mains supply, preferably with a separate supply for source equipment and another for power amplifiers. IMHO this should be the first upgrade for any system.
    Tony I did a similar thing when I re vamped my lounge room, I had a seperate dedicated mains supply to each speaker/amp and Control rack and had them "star" wired back to the sub board, it certainly cleaned up any earthing issues.
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
    2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblbgw_man View Post
    Gentlemen ….. I only ever started this thread as an inexpensive, easy, quick upgrade to the 5235 which does provide substantial sonic improvement to the 5235. I have never held the mod out to be the be all and end all of mods …. Just quick and easy, but since the inception I have been bagged.

    When judging JBL crossovers don’t ever get the 5234 and the 5235 confused, they are totally different beasts, different topologies and different chips. I have posted elsewhere where I find it mind boggling that people will slam the 5235 but praise other makes of crossovers, but when you analyse the schematics of the other cross over’s the topologies are either identical or technically inferior and these are current designs, where as the 5235 is an early 80’s design …. But again they slam the 5235 but praise the others …. Go figure !!

    This is a JBL forum, I use it for discussing JBL products and DIY improvements, and it’s fast becoming an elitist stomping ground for Nelson Pass and 4345 devotee’s …… To be honest I’m getting sick of hearing Nelson Pass’s name on this JBL site ……. If you guys want to sing the praises of Nelson Pass and his gear I suggest you keep it for the DIYAudio forum or start up your own Pass Labs Forum where you can mix with like minded devotees.

    Not unlike some on here I am time poor, but …. I certainly do not lack the technical expertise or knowledge to carry out these mods and redesign stuff, it’s just when you do it for a living it sort of wears thin after a while and other things take priority in life…… like life itself.

    I happen to like BGW stuff, always have and always will but I don’t go around bagging other peoples stuff and singing the praises of BGW and taking cheap shots, I don’t have the defect in my character to need to feel superior to anybody, unlike some Nelson Pass devotee’s who do this at every opportunity to mention that they set the standard on this site.

    As mentioned before with the 4430/4435 I happen to think it is important to keep the same filter characteristics (i.e. same voltage and same phase response as the 52-5130 network cards) as what the system designer intended as I don’t profess to know more than the JBL design engineers. I have tried the 4435’s with standard LR 24/12dB slopes but always end up going back to the 5235 with correct filter slopes as this sounds more natural. I am looking at redesigning the 5235 pcb using discrete class A op amps but retaining the 4430/4435 filter characteristics, keeping the pcb the same size as the 5235 so it can easily be retrofitted into the 5235 chassis but by the sounds of it, this wouldn’t be good enough for some of you because it won’t have Pass Labs or Bryston stamped on the chassis.

    Unlike some I don’t have endless amounts of money to pour into a self indulging hobby anymore so I make the most of what I have and I am happy with what I have, as humble as a system it might be to the elitists but I am happy, now who else can honestly say that.

    Now moderators …. If you wish to pull my post again then that’s fine I have no problem with that but if you do it this time then take one step further and delete my membership and all my posts as well please.

    To the few of you that have done the upgrade I am happy that I could in such a small way help you to attain an improvement in your systems, this satisfies me immensely.
    There is nothing superior or elitist about any of this .......Na..na

    I worked it out that the cost of the 627 chips and the adapter pcs would outweight the cost of a new diy project.

    If you want to be a die hard upgrader go for it.

    Its just like a lot of hard work for the end result.

    I recall Giskard posted all the upgrades for the 5235, even CC the capacitors.

    The BGW were great amps by the way!!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblbgw_man View Post
    Gentlemen ….. I only ever started this thread as an inexpensive, easy, quick upgrade to the 5235 which does provide substantial sonic improvement to the 5235. I have never held the mod out to be the be all and end all of mods …. Just quick and easy, but since the inception I have been bagged.



    This is a JBL forum, I use it for discussing JBL products and DIY improvements, and it’s fast becoming an elitist stomping ground ...

    ... it’s just when you do it for a living it sort of wears thin after a while and other things take priority in life…… like life itself.

    Unlike some I don’t have endless amounts of money to pour into a self indulging hobby anymore so I make the most of what I have and I am happy with what I have, as humble as a system it might be to the elitists but I am happy, now who else can honestly say that.
    .
    I for one say thanks so much for sharing!
    Fun as it is, rewarding as it is, this is a hobby and other things in life do call up the lions share of the funds!

    Buy carefully and appreciate what you've got is a good motto!
    Have a great weekend!
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
    7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460

  11. #26
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    There is nothing superior or elitist about any of this .......Na..na

    Whatever

    I worked it out that the cost of the 627 chips and the adapter pcs would outweight the cost of a new diy project.

    Your maths IS floored, show your workings out and include your time for a new DIY design including R&D and pcb design time. Do it long hand fashion then you will easily pick the error of your workings out. I presume your fingers are to big to use a calculator .

    If you want to be a die hard upgrader go for it.

    What 1 upgrade and now I am a die hard ...... and whats wrong with being an upgrader, isn't that what most people on this site are doing?

    Its just like a lot of hard work for the end result.

    What replacing a couple of chips and a few caps ... how hard can that be? ...... f*&k you must be lazy.

    I recall Giskard posted all the upgrades for the 5235, even CC the capacitors.

    I'm not aware of this, he obviously did'nt create a storm like I did, I suppose you have to "earn" your stripes on LHF, I somehow doubt I will be around long enough for this to happen.

    The BGW were great amps by the way!!
    No need to convince me, thanks for your stamp of aproval BTW, I will sleep better knowing this.
    And JBL put their name to this forum
    OK OUT !!!
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
    2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.

  12. #27
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    Thumbs up jbl rules

    [quote=scorpio;239492]Interesting mix Tony, Naim's are not very often seen used with JBL, my only experince of them is in full Naim systems or mixed with Linn.

    I have used Naim amplification since the late 80's and only with JBL speakers - L19, Century Gold and now 4430's. I guess I like the JBL sound .

  13. #28
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    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/ICs/ICs.html

    $50 for the chip. You mighe be able to source for less but unlikley for single units

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/I...+Adapters.html

    say $10 for the adapter

    = $60.00

    I might be stupid but I am not that stupid

    As for my design? , its a class discrete design of common topology and there are numerous variations

    I use a dual Jfet $7.00 each, a few transisters and resisters and a 2.5 cn square pcb ...say $12.00 all up for a discrete opamp

    You can good up the RC values on vero board or as I do make a printed pcb..its not that hard to do so.

    On replacing parts on a existing board unless you have the right tools its not to be encouraged..burnt and lifted pcb tracks are not particularly reliable.

    You need to be mindful of the rules, name calling and F words are not allowed. There are numerous people on the forums usig Pass equipment.

    In case you are not aware, most chip opamps and only bias with faction of a mA, a discrete opamp can up 7-10 mA of bias and therefore will always work in class A. The PS in the 5235 is unlikely to handle that current of say a dozen opamps collectively.

  14. #29
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/ICs/ICs.html

    $50 for the chip. You mighe be able to source for less but unlikley for single units

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/I...+Adapters.html

    say $10 for the adapter

    = $60.00

    I paid a lot less than that from an ebay store Soundlabs are too expensive.

    I might be stupid but I am not that stupid

    You have inadvertantly not included your time into your equation, initial time to R&D and time to design and manfacture/build/populate a pcb. unless of course you ripped the design out of a magazine along with the pcb, then you must include the cost of the magazine .

    As for my design? , its a class discrete design of common topology and there are numerous variations

    I use a dual Jfet $7.00 each, a few transisters and resisters and a 2.5 cn square pcb ...say $12.00 all up for a discrete opamp

    I use transistors and resistors, I'm not familiar with transisters and resisters .... are they something new? ..... now does your thing have the same open loop gain characteristics as an OPA627, is it as stable as an OPA627, can it drive a load like an OPA627, what is it's Common Mode performance like please, what's its slew rate and do you have a noise figure for it.

    You can good up the RC values on vero board or as I do make a printed pcb..its not that hard to do so.

    On replacing parts on a existing board unless you have the right tools its not to be encouraged..burnt and lifted pcb tracks are not particularly reliable.

    So who burnt their tracks and lifted their tracks :dont-know..... Now are you discouraging any type of modification here, to anything ..... by anybody on a DIY forum .... unless sanctiond by yourself, I have only been doing this for let me see .... um .... 38 years and 34 of them professionally ...... like for a living you know, ...... I may have not reached your standard of vero board but please forgive me if I design a pcb for everything I do.

    You need to be mindful of the rules, name calling and F words are not allowed.

    Yes .... maybe I should have not called you lazy, as you keep replying to my posts you can't be quite that lazy.

    There are numerous people on the forums usig Pass equipment.

    And there are probably more people not using Pass equipment than people that are.

    In case you are not aware, most chip opamps and only bias with faction of a mA, a discrete opamp can up 7-10 mA of bias and therefore will always work in class A. The PS in the 5235 is unlikely to handle that current of say a dozen opamps collectively.

    I think what you mean is chip amps input bias current might be in the order of pico Amps but don't forget their total supply current is in the order of typically 15 milli Amps or so, so without doing the math I still reckon the 5235 ps will handle it .... but hey ... if not, I gues I could increase the size of the transformer to cover it .... mod number 2 !!!
    Why are people so negative around here is it because they didn't post the upgrade ? they didn't come up with the idea? or they don't like other people comming into their territory.
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
    2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.

  15. #30
    scorpio
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    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/ICs/ICs.html

    $50 for the chip. You mighe be able to source for less but unlikley for single units

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/I...+Adapters.html

    say $10 for the adapter

    = $60.00

    Hmm, I got 4 * 627 for 25 euros on e-bay, incl shipping, and the pair of browndog was $8.5 shipping included directly from the US.... Had I waited another week, I could have bought 2 pairs of browndogs with the 627 installed for 30 euros shipped. patience, patience....

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