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Thread: 5235 Mod

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    jblbgw_man & scorpio,

    For the record your posts are becoming more negative as the day rolls on.

    You took my earlier post on the 4134 as an excuse to try start a bitch session on your own terms. Fail.

    The whole topic is rather tired and reads like the guide to better mouse trap when its been beaten and hacked to death.

    I am merely pointing out alternatives that other readers may find attractive (and have found highly successful).

    That is within the rules.

    You have seen fit to break the rules in terms of your behaviours and I suspect you will keep doing that because you enjoy it.

    Decide if you want to stay or leave. That is your call.

    Its only Feb 2009.

    Of a more pragmatic and rational nature the average member would not have the skills to implement the mods to the 5235 you have described and I therefore question the value of it being in this particular forum or even being posted unless you are prepared offer an upgrade serviceor an instructional documented guide.

    What you are doing is in principle a "personal" diy modification and while I can appreciate you might want to post or blog the story you should expect & anticpate comments, debate and discussions on what you are doing.

    That is withn the Rules.

    If you cant deal with that you don't belong on any public forums.

    If you want to be a smart ass think twice about it.

    I had no problem ripping though John Curl on Diy audio who relented.

    My earlier point was that based on vast experience of a group of people (for those with a wider enough perspective on reality) that all these chip updates are just improvements to some ears and not others who might say its sounds different but not better.

    Then there are things like power supplies and parts selection which can be a bigger mine field and it becomes inevitable that you end up with not a modification but a new bit of gear.

    If you are prepared to look beyond that you can do a whole lot better if you are smart. The auditory problem is that when you mix and match different audio equipment in different systems the sonic differences are sometimes there and sometimes not. Hence I would caution anyone considering ripping into their 5235 to think about it (before you wipe of its Ebay value)

    Its been picked over here on the forum on many ocassions. It would be useful to have all these types of threads on one place and figure outwhose thread was worth reading. Personally I would only bother reading 4313B's posts on the 5235 mods.

    I would recommend the Ashy cossovers as a good alternative to the JBL 5235. Beyond that there are items like the Bryston which is a huge jump on the stock JBL crossovers , the Passlabs XVR1, the DEQX or some of the class A diy kits like Greg Ball, Borbely Audio and a few others in Europe supply.

    In a commercial realisation JBL produced the DX1 but unfortunately the stock that was reserved for members was destroyed. The DX1 was designed for the real HiFi audio and had many unique features for a commercial crossover such as discrete class A high pass filter buffers, charge coupled filter capacitors and programmable filters among others.

    Those that own them rave about them.

    I have used two DX1 and used them extensively for some time along side the stock 5235. The difference is not subtle.

    I am not going to comment on the specifics of the discrete opamp I am using as there are 100's of pages on diyaudio covering that topic including measurements. The circuit is identical for all intensive purposes to the XVR1 and there are specs on that unit. The proof is in the listening.

  2. #32
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    jblbgw_man & scorpio,

    For the record your posts are becoming more negative as the day rolls on.

    You took my earlier post on the 4134 as an excuse to try start a bitch session on your own terms. Fail.

    The whole topic is rather tired and reads like the guide to better mouse trap when its been beaten and hacked to death.

    I am merely pointing out alternatives that other readers may find attractive (and have found highly successful).

    That is within the rules.

    You have seen fit to break the rules in terms of your behaviours and I suspect you will keep doing that because you enjoy it.

    Decide if you want to stay or leave. That is your call.

    Its only Feb 2009.

    Of a more pragmatic and rational nature the average member would not have the skills to implement the mods to the 5235 you have described and I therefore question the value of it being in this particular forum or even being posted unless you are prepared offer an upgrade serviceor an instructional documented guide.

    What you are doing is in principle a "personal" diy modification and while I can appreciate you might want to post or blog the story you should expect & anticpate comments, debate and discussions on what you are doing.

    That is withn the Rules.

    If you cant deal with that you don't belong on any public forums.

    If you want to be a smart ass think twice about it.

    I had no problem ripping though John Curl on Diy audio who relented.

    My earlier point was that based on vast experience of a group of people (for those with a wider enough perspective on reality) that all these chip updates are just improvements to some ears and not others who might say its sounds different but not better.

    Then there are things like power supplies and parts selection which can be a bigger mine field and it becomes inevitable that you end up with not a modification but a new bit of gear.

    If you are prepared to look beyond that you can do a whole lot better if you are smart. The auditory problem is that when you mix and match different audio equipment in different systems the sonic differences are sometimes there and sometimes not. Hence I would caution anyone considering ripping into their 5235 to think about it (before you wipe of its Ebay value)

    Its been picked over here on the forum on many ocassions. It would be useful to have all these types of threads on one place and figure outwhose thread was worth reading. Personally I would only bother reading 4313B's posts on the 5235 mods.

    I would recommend the Ashy cossovers as a good alternative to the JBL 5235. Beyond that there are items like the Bryston which is a huge jump on the stock JBL crossovers , the Passlabs XVR1, the DEQX or some of the class A diy kits like Greg Ball, Borbely Audio and a few others in Europe supply.

    In a commercial realisation JBL produced the DX1 but unfortunately the stock that was reserved for members was destroyed. The DX1 was designed for the real HiFi audio and had many unique features for a commercial crossover such as discrete class A high pass filter buffers, charge coupled filter capacitors and programmable filters among others.

    Those that own them rave about them.

    I have used two DX1 and used them extensively for some time along side the stock 5235. The difference is not subtle.

    I am not going to comment on the specifics of the discrete opamp I am using as there are 100's of pages on diyaudio covering that topic including measurements. The circuit is identical for all intensive purposes to the XVR1 and there are specs on that unit. The proof is in the listening.
    It's about time you rested your ego Ian or at the very least controlled it, your ego is pungently and gratuitously saturated through most of your posts, others see it as well, now in the interest of keeping the forum civil ..... nuff said !! ...... or if you want to continue to discredit yourself then please continue, but you will need to find another sparring partner ... remember I have a life !! But don't let it go to your head and consider it a win !! somebody here has to be the adult !!
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B, 5235's.
    BGW 250D's, BGW 750C, BGW 203, BGW 7500, BSS FDS360's, Aphex 720, 320A, 204, 108, 124's.

  3. #33
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    [quote=Ian Mackenzie;239610]jblbgw_man & scorpio,

    Of a more pragmatic and rational nature the average member would not have the skills to implement the mods to the 5235 you have described and I therefore question the value of it being in this particular forum or even being posted unless you are prepared offer an upgrade service or an instructional documented guide.]

    Again - I can only thank all of those who have contributed concerning modifying the 5235. I personally do not have the skills to implement, but, fortunately I know a man who has, and who has done so very satisfactorily for my 5235. I have a modified 5235 ‘a la jblbgw man’ with the OPA627 opamp and Phillips caps and a standard 5235; I have swopped the network cards between the two and, in my admittedly subjective opinion, the modifications bring forth an impressive step forward. I have not changed the TL074's as yet - I have some 4134's (awaiting adaptor) and was going to try these until Ian's recent comment.

    I have found this thread and related threads concerning the 5235 and its use with 4430/4435's very useful and I, for one, hope that discussion continues and remains constructive .

  4. #34
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I hope so and that is why this ret#$% is on the ignore list.

    As I said earlier the tweaks are certainly fun but I was so pleased with the way the 5235 was made I decided to leave it alone.

    My recollection subjectively is the 5534 series chips have a lot drive but can become fatiguing and lack true resolving power and sounded too metalic with JBL's. The budget 2134-4134 are pleasing but are really very mellow and I imagine they would sound okay with the 4435, the TL072 are somewhere in between.

    The TL074-72 are really not that bad but if it were me I would try some others like the BB 2604. Here are a few ideas. The BB 627 are serious money in anyone's book.

    I know Huge Dean like the BB 2604.

    You really want something with the drive of the 5534 but smoother and low input offset. You can also bias these chips very gently into class A with a pull down resister from the output to the negative rail ans they will clean up their act. That would help the 5534.

    http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/catch-1.htm

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geeks...mendation.html


    Benchmark Audio still use the 5534 in their stuff but I know they pay careful attention to the closed loop gain curve. I am not fond the the diodes on the input.

    As mentioned in the above links some of these chips have such high open loop bandwidth and gain they are difficult to operate with reliable stability unless you pay a lot of attention to board layout, PS and compensation. For the same reasons they are very sensitive to power supply output impediance and local decoupling. You just cant plug and play with opamps if you want the best out of them.

    I was given some 627s to play with but the price made discrete opamps a no brainer given you can optimise the specs like open loop gain to suit the application.

    With SK filters you are really looking for low output impediance and very hi input impediance buffers to ensure the filter functions correctly. Where the buffer is operated in unity gain zillions of db open loop gain is a waste and can lead to stability issues. Circuits with massive feedback tend to sound processed and scrubbed. Therefore a simple source cathod follower can be used as a buffer for the RC networks and setup to self bias if you use 2 x Jfets.

    Some useful references :

    http://www.borbelyaudio.com/adobe/xover.pdf

    http://www.borbelyaudio.com/adobe/ae599bor.pdf

    http://www.borbelyaudio.com/adobe/ae699bor.pdf

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=1

    http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_hdam_module.htm

  5. #35
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    jblbgw_man


    Hey you! Yes you.

    How about hotting up an Ashly crossover for the Yanks?

    Christ, if I was paid 10 bucks for every capital idea I came up with I'd be rolling in it.

    Hang on I am.()

  6. #36
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    How about hotting up an Ashly crossover for the Yanks?
    Do you think the Ashly is inherently a better design? Stock, the Ashly is probably the better unit, but if both use the same upgraded opamps? Of course the Ashly is currently available which makes getting them slightly easier.


    Widget

  7. #37
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    In terms of functionality I think it is.

    Depending on the rest of your stuff it is as good as it need to be.

    There are a lot of chip stages in the Ashly! The stuff is fit for the purpose and at least for the stock JBL vintage stuff its quite acceptable

    But like start shaving the performance like Bo did and all these analogue pro crossovers (and equalisers) are questionable.

    It can be a painful and expensive cycle that results in an even shorter play list. In other worfds unless you are prepared to review the entire signal chain its not something to get too excited about.

    At some stage when I get everything else out of the way which will be a fair while I am going to talk to Greg Ball about something that might prove useful. He is an engineer that has worked for ML and Usher on their hi end stuff and has now turned his hand to hi performance modules.

  8. #38
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    Many Thanks!

    I'm hopeful that the flames have died down just a bit on this thread.?.

    Just wanted to pass along my appreciation to everyone here for the great suggestions. I never really knew what the slopes looked like on the 5235 with the 4430/35 cards. I just knew the 4430's sounded great with the 5235. It would take a lot of work do duplicate that in a passive. Many thanks to jblbgw man for that one!

    I used my 4430's for many years with the passive internal crossovers. When I bought the 5235 (new) back in the late 80's, it was a revealation. I never knew these speakers could sound this great. I had actually been contemplating replacing them...till I heard them bi-amped with the proper crossover, and (of course) the proper cards for these speakers. The improvement is not subtle.

    I'd just recommend that anyone with 4430 or 4435's try to secure a 5235, with the proper cards. The improvement is truly stunning.

    I'm now going to do some chip and cap upgrades to mine...which still seem to sound as it did when new, but I know there are newer, and better sounding op-amps and caps these days.

    Thanks again to all!
    DaveObieOne

  9. #39
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    Bitchings a Bitch

    Well it certainly seems the bitching has killed the continuance of usefulness of this thread

  10. #40
    Senior Member jblbgw_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    Well it certainly seems the bitching has killed the continuance of usefulness of this thread
    Yes sadly you are right, however if you need any more assistance regarding the 5235 please don't hesitate in PM me.
    4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B, 5235's.
    BGW 250D's, BGW 750C, BGW 203, BGW 7500, BSS FDS360's, Aphex 720, 320A, 204, 108, 124's.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveobieone View Post
    I'm hopeful that the flames have died down just a bit on this thread.?.

    ..........................

    I'm now going to do some chip and cap upgrades to mine...which still seem to sound as it did when new, but I know there are newer, and better sounding op-amps and caps these days.

    Thanks again to all!
    DaveObieOne
    Have you done the upgrade?
    What do you think

  12. #42
    Senior Member scorpio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblbgw_man View Post
    Yes sadly you are right, however if you need any more assistance regarding the 5235 please don't hesitate in PM me.
    Or me to that matter,

  13. #43
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    5235 Mod and 52-5140 cards

    Hi,

    I have a chance to buy a JBL 5235 for use with my 4343 speakers. However, the 5235 does not have the JBL card for my speakers and from what I see on the forum they seem to be hard to come by.
    So, assuming that I cannot buy a pair of JBL 52-5140 cards, what kind of trouble am I letting myself in for? Can a populated card be (easily) rebuilt for the specifics of the 4343 speakers?

    The cards with the unit appear to crossover at 150Hz... according to the label just visible in the picture on eBay.

    I am also interested in upgrading the 5235.. I kind of liek bringing a unit of the same generation as my speakers back to life and then improving on it. Can anyone point me to the best source of upgrade information on the 5235?

    Thanks for the help

  14. #44
    Senior Member scorpio's Avatar
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    Guido on this forum can normally have cards made for you for this application... contact him by pm would be my advice...
    Fanatically opposed to all forms of fanaticism

  15. #45
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    Card manufacture

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
    Guido on this forum can normally have cards made for you for this application... contact him by pm would be my advice...
    Hi,

    Thanks for the advice. Guido , sadly, is out of cards, but I think that I have enough information now to build my own.... assuming no major snafus.
    It has been a bit of a rabbit-chase.. the information needed is widely scattered over various forums.. but it seems to be complete. The next step is to see if I can get close tolerance components. After that, what could possibly go wrong?

    Thanks to all

    george

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