My new 4430 system

[3dbdown]

OK, guys....I need you expertise and help!!!

I've just got my 4430's installed in my room, and wanted to ask the forum's advice.......

I'm running the pre-amp outs of my Marantz 2325 into a dbx 231 equalizer, to try and get rid of an annoying room node I have. From there, into my dbx electronic crossover, at about 1164hz (JBL Internal xover @ 1000hz) and from there into my QSC RMX 850's. Keep in mind, I run this gear 'cause I already have it, and after buying the 4430's and my C70 Alpha 1's, I'm out of sheckels for the time being.

So, here's the scenario: My room is about 14 by 25 feet, all solid wood tongue and groove, except for my basss wall, which is covered in mortar and brick. I have concrete floors, carpeted. So far, so good. Windows are small, evenly spaced, up high, with a patio slider covered by plastic vertical blinds, right in front, and at right angles to my right speaker.

Now, the bad news.....I have a round brick gas fireplace, about 4 feet in diameter, 19" high, 4 and 1/2 feet out from and centered in front of my bass wall. Speakers are about 9' apart, toed in about one inch each, and I'm sitting 9 feet in front of them. Bad news is, the fireplace is there. The good news, I guess, is that at least it's round !!

Then, my equipment, which cannot change location, is mounted on two wooden cabinets along the bass wall......Yicccchhhh. But, my plan is to get an open 19" rack, about 5-6" tall, leave the bottom 3 feet open, and rack mount everything else above that. I THINK that will do the trick.

Then I have a 2 foot screen between the top of the fireplace bricks and the hood/flue/chimney. The screen roughly coincides with the horn dispersion on the 4430's, so I guess I got lucky again. I'm guessing I have a standing wave in the 9" dia. chimney, but I haven't noticed any issues with it thus far. And the chimney is round.

The EQ took care of the room node, sort of, somewhere between 3 and 5 khz, I figure due to the wood panelling. By the way, the ceiling is also wood, and has a slight slope accross the plane of the speakers, ranging in height from 8'8" to 8'10", which I suppose is a gift horse I dare not look in the mouth!!

Although I don't quite have the node tamed yet, I'm hot on its trail. I get a few reflections in the ceiling beam pockets, but not early reflections....although interesting sonically, they are not a problem!!

I had one heck of a time all last week trying to place the speakers so I could get some bass response. After trying every position from 1 to 3 meters out of the corners, with no luck, I finally shoved them directly in the corners !!!

Problem solved, though I'm damned if I know why. Well, if it sounds good, so be it.....Right ???

So, now I have a reasonably good sounding setup, but I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions from the forum as far as how to tune it up a little better.

I'm listening to Seal's first cd right now, which I've used as well as between-the-station FM white noise to get the system to this stage.

Turns out, of my 500 cd's, I can throw 496 of them away due to rotten mixing/mastering..........What a revelation !!! I LOVE THESE MONITORS, AND IF IT KILLS ME, I'LL GET 'EM RIGHT!!!!! CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER WAY TO GO, CAN YOU??????

This is without a doubt the hardest pair I've ever set up. Makes me love them all the more..........They are the absolute naked truth!!

My friends at JBL thought, in terms of re-sale value, that I paid too much for them..............But, considering that I WILL NEVER GET OFF THESE 4430's, that is a moot point.

Anyway, my new found friends, I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you may have regarding my setup,

Thanks in advance,

Rick

[John]

Nice discription,but ???





Well maybe not worthless but pictures would be nice.

[clmrt]

Are they on the long wall or the short? And, have you tried just skipping all that gear and just run them with a pre and an amp?

[3dbdown]

Thanks, John and clmrt...

Yeah, pix will be forthcoming as soon as I tear myself away from my listening chair!

The monitors are on the short wall, and room furniture layout dictates they remain there.

I did start out with just the pre-amp out, but needed to fix the room node. I also ran the Marantz power amp to the cabs, but quite honestly, I preferred the sound of the QSC's....They just really woke up the monitors.

Problem with using the tone controls was that when I got rid of the offending frequency, was that I also got rid of most of the other midrange as well! Just too broadbanded. It really is much better than it was, and I may be closer than I think to optimum sound for the room. I needed to give my ears a rest last night, so today I will re-evaluate the system.

The EQ and crossover do allow me to regulate the top-end level without losing the overall picture.

Actually, I just turned down the high crossover level a taste. Obviously had ear fatuige last night.

Today's another day! I'll work on the pictures! I have not posted photos here, and would appreciate any info on max sizes so the aren't too large, but show up reasonably well....


Rick

[johnaec]

I thought the 4430 had special crossover circuitry that gets removed when biamping, and that this has caused many to find they liked the sound better using the internal crossovers instead of biamping. I run my 4430's with the internal crossovers and am totally happy with the sound.

John

[3dbdown]

Johnaec.....

Your point is well taken........

They do have fine crossovers, and sounded fine to me internal as well.

However, my listening enviornment is a little too bright, and I wanted a way to control the hi-freq level evenly without changing anything else. EQ alone was simply not the answer. Nor was adjusting the network L-pads. I like to set those up in a particular way, then, once the cabinets are set up, I leave them alone.

So, bi-amping in my case is essentially for purposes of volume control. The frequency selection on my crossover is stepped, and I'm just trying now to decide on 1048hz or 1164 hz, leaning toward the 1048 hz mark. Once satisfied, I'll measure the frequency for accuracy, as my estimate of frequency is based on doing the arithmetic for the detent positions on the selector switch. Mark and Greg agreed they could be crossed over anywhere from 900 to 1200Hz, end encouraged me to experiment with the crossover point.

It' all about control, and I now have lots of options in getting everything dialed in.

Bi-amping doesn't eliminate all the internal network components anyway on the 4430.

Greg Timbers and Mark Gander were the first ones to tell me that bi-amping would not gain me much, in the traditional sense of why one does it in the first place.

In my particular situation, however it is working extremely well. This is a tough system to set up properly, and I've had to use all the tricks!!

I can see why some people don't like the sound of this system, and I personally believe that may be because they just don't put forth all the necessary time or effort to get it right.

This is high-end stuff, and Like a Ferrari or a Steinway....It has to be properly tuned up. It deserves all the attention a user can provide.



I'm staying on it, and the rewards are great, and getting better every hour!

[johnaec]

So, bi-amping in my case is essentially for purposes of volume control.

What would be nice to try is one of the JBL 5235 crossovers with the special 4430 cards. 'Been looking myself...

John

[3dbdown]

Yeah, that would be way cool, but I haven't found any. So, I use what I have. It's like they say in racing "you run what you brung"!

Of course, the beauty of this whole thing is, I will never be really "done" with the system, in the classical sense. And the 4430's definitely point up the weaknesses in the rest of the system. I don't fully know what those are yet, but it's a labor of love, and no matter what I do in the future, the cabs will always do the job.

First thing I am going to do, though is change the cables among the electronics. They are old, not very expensive, and left over from the studio days. There's much better stuff out there, and if I am going to keep the setup I have, that is the first order of business.

I've heard there is a mod card for the JBL crossover that does an 18db rolloff......Know anything about that? I've always had 12db stuff...seems to be a standard. But, in case I do find one, it would be good to know.

I also don't currently have the bottom end rolled off, and I need to do that. THe crossover I'm using will do it at 40hz, and then I also have selectable 30hz or 50hz filters in the QSC power amps. Just trying to figure the best choice. I am inclined toward the 30hz filter at the power amp, but would appreciate any thoughts.



Rick

[Fred Sanford]

I also don't currently have the bottom end rolled off, and I need to do that. THe crossover I'm using will do it at 40hz, and then I also have selectable 30hz or 50hz filters in the QSC power amps. Just trying to figure the best choice. I am inclined toward the 30hz filter at the power amp, but would appreciate any thoughts.



Rick

Double check me on this, but I was a bit surprised recently when the QSC's 30Hz rolloff was what it said it was, but the 50Hz rolloff also included a slight 100Hz boost...take a look at the fine print:

[3dbdown]

Hi, Fred..

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not sure what your are suggesting. I had already decided not to use the 50hz precisely because of the bump. But am I ok with the 30hz filter, or am I better off using the other options in the signal chain, which are:

1) 40hz high-pass on my EQ

2) 50hz, 12db.octave lo-cut on my Crossover

I just want to keep as much of the low frequency in the 4430's as I can. They start to roll off at 35hz anyway, I think.

Rick

[Fred Sanford]

Hi, Fred..

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not sure what your are suggesting. I had already decided not to use the 50hz precisely because of the bump. But am I ok with the 30hz filter, or am I better off using the other options in the signal chain, which are:

1) 40hz high-pass on my EQ

2) 50hz, 12db.octave lo-cut on my Crossover

I just want to keep as much of the low frequency in the 4430's as I can. They start to roll off at 35hz anyway, I think.

Rick

Sorry, I guess I wasn't suggesting anything, just pointing out the 100Hz bump. Personally, I'd probably use the 30Hz filter on the power amp, figuring I'd be looking for a fully parametric EQ in the future to get a better handle on the room issues. I think Meyers are a forum favorite lately, I personally have AudioArts, but for a different application. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

By the way, I checked the loose drivers I have around, and so far no "12"s...sorry! I'd be proud to own one, though, and am glad you've made your way here.

je

[3dbdown]

Fred,

thanks for giving me a couple of units to check out....

I had actually, right after our exchange, engaged the 30hz filters on the QSC's, and they definitely have the least noticable difference in sound so I'll stick with them.

Yeah, parametric would be ideal, and I was pondering that the other day....oh well, something for the not too distant future! Everything sounds better right now, so I'll enjoy them, and tackle the remaining issues one at a time till it's right.

Right now I notice that scratchy pot in one of them, the mid freq, level pot, acting up a little. It's been giving me trouble setting the mids exactly where I want them. I have to figure out how to get to it though. The JBL foilcal covers the mounting screws, and doesn't look like any fun to remove or re-install.

Not sure if I can get to it with drivers removed or not. I'm hoping it just needs some De-Oxit, but it could be burned....I just really don't want to mess up the Cabs, as they are in virtually pristine shape.

Rick

[oznob]

Hi Rick,

Johnaec has my old 4430's which I would still have if my wife was a bit more understaning! I think her first comment was, "what the hell are those things doing in my living room?" I am very lucky now as she really likes the look of the S3100's. Oh, she told me the other day that they sound very "nice!" Hey, I'll take what I can get!

Have you looked into some room treatments to tame it a bit? They make some very decor' friendly designs these days and that may help getting things calmed down.

As far as cables and wires, there maybe something to good shielded cables and wires but most of it is marketing IMHO. There is a huge mark up on high end cables as well. I wonder if that is why they push them so hard? A friend of mine made my speaker cables out of 14 gauge OFC copper and some nice interconnects that are mylar shielded. They work great for me and cost me under $50.

Good luck with the 4430's. They are great speakers and have a lot of fans on this forum!

[oznob]

http://www.echobusters.com/

Echobusters room treatments have been used by my Uncle who does home theater installations. He tries to make his systems work without them if at all possible but, in very lively rooms, he has had great success with them.

Mark

[3dbdown]

Thanks, everyone for all your help....

It works! I took the room node out with the 1/3 octave EQ, although I will now try to get parametric with it, since I found the offending frequency finally. I checked out the Meyer, and it looks like a sweet unit indeed.....just wondering if I can buy or build a single filter to do the job.

Also used a couple pieces of foam I had from the studio on the walls either side of the cabs, and it really helped. Am now able to use the Marantz tone controls for slight treatment based on the particular mix I'm listening to.

I also removed the elctronic crossover, as the EQ treatment was successful......and although it was a fun experiment, I really do like the internal xover setup better. I will still change out my cabling though, and I think I'll build those myself.

So, once again, I find simpler is better!!

Still have to get after that dirty L-pad, and today will remove the 2235H and will hopefully, with the aid of a light and a mirror, see if I can't get the De-Oxit in there to sweeten it up.

Thank you ALL again!

Rick