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Thread: 4way, 3way, 2way or co-axial?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Akira's Avatar
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    Question 4way, 3way, 2way or co-axial?

    What is your preference?
    In a well executed design the end goal may be the same, but different formats will always yield a different bias. While my main system is a 4way, I prefer a 3way design with sub.
    To me it boils down to a perfect balance of bass, mid and high. (with a sub sonic cushion) It's just the way I mix and listen to sound. A 2way co-axe may have a smoother response, but a well balanced 3way is what I want to hear. Though not as seamless in response, there is a naturalness in the way it interprets music.
    Maybe it's just a personal bias rooted in what I grew up with; Younger engineers seem to favor 2way systems these days.

  2. #2
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    I agree, they all have their advantages. I used the 604-8G for a number of years--they're in storage right now--and currently use the Tannoy/VTL/Manley/Mastering Lab 10 in one of my systems, so I have a real appreciation for a good coaxial. However, I think the 15" coaxial is really a contradiction in terms, because of having to take a 15" cone up to meet a horn that will fit. A 12" might be OK--I haven't tried one. The 10" is really nice, especially with that time aligned crossover, but it needs to be run over a sub at about 80-100 Hz.

    I'm building a two-way with horn treble which is outstanding because it uses outstanding components that really can cover their assigned frequency ranges with very low distortion, and has double woofers, so the bass holds up well into the upper 20-'s. Such a two way, though, has, by definition almost, a crossover in the middle of a range in which I'd rather not have it. I do like a three way, especially if the middle driver plays a long range, as it does in the LSR32, 250 to 2200. In my idle moments I'm meditating on a large three way which could do something similar with classic components, say an Altec 414 from 80 or 100 to about 1700 with a TAD 2001 or 2 on a small horn above and a JBL 2245 below. Widget's sub1500/TAD 1102/4003 plus supertweeter is really very close to what I think will work best, but the 1102 seems to have been discontinued. The Manley Lab 10 with a subwoofer--perhaps the LE14-3--might actually be the easiest and optimum way to achieve that.

    However, I fear I am addicted to the 10" midcone in the big JBL four-way. There is a clarity there superior even to the Tannoy (a subwoofer would probably clear up any midrange). Problem is, I'd like it to go lower. It is also not quite as coherent in imaging and so, I continue to work on the two-way.

    David

  3. #3
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    My dream would be an "augmented" 1way system.

    This means a midrange speaker with an extended frequency response, a good power handlimg capacity (and all other benefits of course) with additional bass and high extension speakers. But such a midrange speaker is hardly to get. Once Scanspeak had a good offer, now out of production.

    But recently I heard a wonderful augmented 2way system (EVII).
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  4. #4
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoerninger View Post
    My dream would be an "augmented" 1way system.

    This means a midrange speaker with an extended frequency response, a good power handlimg capacity (and all other benefits of course) with additional bass and high extension speakers. But such a midrange speaker is hardly to get. Once Scanspeak had a good offer, now out of production.

    But recently I heard a wonderful augmented 2way system (EVII).
    ___________
    Peter
    Yeah, I think we're talking about basically the same thing.

  5. #5
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoerninger View Post
    My dream would be an "augmented" 1way system.
    That would be great... I have tried a few, but none have had the dynamics or tonal accuracy of a three-way or as I consider my current system, an augmented three-way.


    Widget

  6. #6
    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoerninger View Post
    My dream would be an "augmented" 1way system. r
    Had never thot of it that way....but does my 1 way Walsh's with a M&K sub qualify as an "augmented 1way system". IMHO , the lack of a crossover net really adds to the seemless/smoothness/coherency
    Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles

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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    It's hard to beat the coherance of a co-ax. I haven't had the chance to play with one, but I'd love to try the BMS co-ax compression driver on a co-ax LF for a hi-end tri-ax.

    One point source for all to come through. Adapted to a 2235H would be killer.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  8. #8
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    BMS+

    might be able to try that on an already modified-for-UREI E145
    (fittings for driver/horn already machined).?

    ... trade off a higher crossover for LF extension, but I'd personally
    rather have to graft on LF than make (more) compromise in the LF/MF
    crossover range.

  9. #9
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Grumpy

    I have the E145 based 801C driver in my HT set-up as my center channel. It's one fine sounding driver. I would be tempted to get a pair of 811C just to check them out as a stereo pair. That said I have been using a B380/2235 sub for LFE and it's a nice combination. I just had Cloverfield going, what a hoot!

    As much as I like the 801C coax I really like the JBL 10"s both the 2122 and 2123 and the 8" 2108 in a set-up. There is just something they bring to the mix, clarity, naturalness hard to say exactly what it is. I am really partial to either a 4 way or a 3 way with subs.

    Rob

  10. #10
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    When I met Steve Schell in LA he neatly explained the short comings of the larger Coaxial designs like the Altec 604 series. As is hinted above the problem is blending the dispersion of the "larger woofer" with the dispersion of the "smaller" at the crossover point.

    Those co axials are just pea shooters compared to the more contemporary bi radial based systems. Unfortunately the correctly sized horn just won't if in the centre of the driver.

    Smaller coaxial's like 8'' and 6.5 work better because the constraints of the large cones aren't nearly as bad and as in the Sea's coaxials they can use very good dome's because the crossover point is much higher.

    A seperate auxillary sub works very well provided you take baffle diffraction correctly into account in terms of the overall response. A lot of people miss this point with smaller systems where the response falls off below 300-500 hertz and they wonder why it sounds like a small system compared to system with much large baffles.

    If super loud levels aren't required and you want more flexibility in listening distances this approach has a lot going for it over large baffle discrete 3-4 way systems. I think Kef has recently introduced on some systems along the lines of a 3 way using a smaller 2 way coaxial for mid and highs and obviously there is the Tad at the top end of the market.

  11. #11
    Senior Member andywin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    It's hard to beat the coherance of a co-ax. I haven't had the chance to play with one, but I'd love to try the BMS co-ax compression driver on a co-ax LF for a hi-end tri-ax.

    One point source for all to come through. Adapted to a 2235H would be killer.
    UK speaker company Volt uses a BMS driver in a 12" coaxial in it's Pro PA range. I've often wondered what one of their 18" drivers might be like with the BMS coaxial. It would require mods to their chassis casting though.

    http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/Ab.../about_us.html

  12. #12
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    There are newer-design JBL 8s, 10s, and 12s to try....

  13. #13
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    drivers might be like with the BMS coaxial.
    Hello Edgewound

    I wonder if you could get a 2" throat driver to work in a 4" coil?? It looks like it's a tight fit with a 1" throat.

    Those co axials are just pea shooters compared to the more contemporary bi radial based systems. Unfortunately the correctly sized horn just won't if in the centre of the driver.
    Hello Ian

    Yes but they are no worse than the 2307/2405 combo used in the monitors. They can sound quite good on axis.

    Rob

  14. #14
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    I listen KM30 from Phy on open baffle and also on Rondo enclosure.
    Superb detail.Superb focus.
    On the Rondo they have more impact on the low bottom.
    Both options was amaizing and easy listening.

    http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/KM30_SAG_E.html

  15. #15
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    FWIW Just found this; apparently it uses a 3.5 inch/2 inch dia dual concentric compression driver
    http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/produ...V1.02%20LR.pdf

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