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Thread: Looky, Looky !!

  1. #16
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    That price point

    Could have come in at 1,995 Ea, with the cost of bulk buying of wood it would bring the cost down alot lower, they only have about 600.00 in matereials per cabnet so why are they trying to add 5 times profit margin. The R&D has long been done they just pretty much built the same product that was already built at one time. So i don`t understand the plans are available for anyone to build these cabnets and you can get these drivers raw frame and you can locate the horns raw as well so why such a high price to pay for these when they can be built by anyone for alot less plus there not even the same product as years past.
    You look thru this site at the original specs of the 515 and these newer drivers are not the same as what there offering years ago, so why is it so hi in price for what is not even the genuine article at 97DB, they were much higher in efficiancy years ago for original 515s.
    I own Original 421-8LF never reconed in A-7s and it is about 102-103 in efficiancy and these newer 515s are only 97db is this because these cabnets are ceiled and you are losing 3db there. I know the 515 is a diff driver than the 421LF but even the original 515 are higher in efficiancy than these newer drivers are whats the deal?.
    www.systemsbyshorty.com

  2. #17
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    Specs are nonspecific

    For usable specs you need the following for example:

    35Hz to 22KHz +/- 3 dB with a sensitivity of 97dB @ 3ft from 35 Hz to 22 kHz. If you dont specify the +/- dB or specify the freq range of the sensitivity it is worthless. Generally it is understood to be like +/- 3dB and sens usually measured in midband 1000Hz.

    Big difference in sensitivity from 105dB @1000Hz to sensitivity measured at 35Hz.

    Without having the details of how the measurements were made
    they are not very useful.
    Roland

  3. #18
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    yo

    They rate the sensitivity as 97db @1w@1m. Very standard. usually they use band limited noise. So I have to assume they did measure at 1khz!

    Now, I HAVE been told by people that the literature in OUR library is inaccurate! lets take the 421-8LF for example. I read that these drivers were 102db. I also have an ENTIRE dealers looseleaf from 1978-79 containg the specs for ALL the Altec products of that time! All of em! My literature coincides with the literature in OUR library. But ya know what? Ive been using 421,s since 1977! Our original system had A7,s with the 515B,s. When we built our big " DISCO " system the 421,s were the most unbelievably efficient woofers there were!

    These days Im told the 421-8LF is a 97db driver. And the information I am reading about the past is wrong! Well, Its not! Because my ears KNOW as well as measurements tell, they produced SO MUCH sound with Amps like DC-300A,s!

    Not to mention that I also have two original 421-8LF,s never reconed from 1980! What a difference to some of the recones you get today! I dont use these as I dont want to blow them, but man, they rock with almost no power! And they sound so good, very full and warm, and they reproduce the low mids effortlessly! And articulate bass lines! No holes in the sound! At all! And the dynamics! These OLD ones give you that illusion of " YOU ARE THERE "! The vocals and keyboards are fantastic!

    Maybe they made a TYPO, and I will find out! But if 97db is the true sensitivity of the NEW A7,s it isnt high efficiency! I kind of cant see the sensitivity of a system like this as being that low, but I dont know much about this new system either!

    What I am saying is that for the price they want ( it does look good cosmetically ) is HAS GOT TO BE THE REAL McCoy!

    I am skeptical. Like I said before, I have been told the info on our site is wrong, yet I have a full looseleaf of ALL Altec products from 78-79 saying the same thing as what I read here. But I have the advantage of being an end user from all the way back then, and my EARS can tell if it has the right stuff!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 05-25-2003 at 05:20 PM.

  4. #19
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    deciphering codes

    If anyone wants to decipher EXACTLY what Im saying PM me and Ill loan you my Green Hornet Decoder Ring!

    I know I may be opening up a can of worms!

  5. #20
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    I must also say..........

    if the sensitivity rating is indeed a " TYPO " it does seem unusual, considering how much attention they paid to every other detail. And they def rate the other 515-8GHP woofer as being 104db sensitivity!

    They didnt proof read before they put it up on the site?
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 05-25-2003 at 02:05 PM.

  6. #21
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    Re: Specs are nonspecific

    Originally posted by Roland
    For usable specs you need the following for example:

    35Hz to 22KHz +/- 3 dB with a sensitivity of 97dB @ 3ft from 35 Hz to 22 kHz. If you dont specify the +/- dB or specify the freq range of the sensitivity it is worthless. Generally it is understood to be like +/- 3dB and sens usually measured in midband 1000Hz.

    Big difference in sensitivity from 105dB @1000Hz to sensitivity measured at 35Hz.

    Without having the details of how the measurements were made
    they are not very useful.
    By the way Roland, I do own and use a 1/3 octave RTA and mic as well as the noise generator. Not only is the sensitivity of my newer reconed Altec drivers different, but so is the frequency response! This aint my ears talking, but what I see on a scope. It isnt like I just started doing audio the other day!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 05-25-2003 at 02:12 PM.

  7. #22
    Member Todd W. White's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Hello Fellows!

    I am working on a response to the appearance of this ad. It should be ready this time tomorrow, unless I have to wait until Tuesday to get some information I'll need to give you a proper analysis of this critter.


    In the meantime, suffice to say I am VERY suspicious! Here are a couple of things that I notice outright -

    1. It says the entire unit is made in the USA, and the components are made on the original Altec tooling.

    Unless Bill at GPA has been hiding something from me (something I do not think he would do), I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that these are NEW products made on the original Altec tooling which HE owns.

    I strongly suspect that they are NOS parts with new cabinets and crossovers.

    2. I am bothered by the specifications - years ago, when THE Altec Lansing sent out new spec sheets on the A7-8G, as it was then called, Dr. John K. Hilliard and I both sent long, detailed letters to Ted Uzzle and Dave Merrey excoriating them over the flaws in the technical specifications.

    I am looking for a copy of those letters now, but I distinctly remember that the efficiency ratings were WAY TOO LOW on that spec sheet, which might account for the goof on the new "Altec" Legacy A7.

    Dr. Hilliard and I BOTH castigated them for changing to the 515-8G, which was NOT originally designed for the A7. In fact, the A7 originally used an Altec 803-series woofer, followed by it's successor, the magnificent 416-series of woofers.

    "Magnificent" - now WHERE have I heard that before??????

    Simply put, the A7 doesn't work as well in the LF output department with the 515-G series woofers as it did with the 416's.

    The only reason that I can come up with that they are using it is because THAT is what the current guys at ALPro remember, so when the folks at Sparkomatic (ooooops! - I mean Altec Lansing Technologies) asked them for the spec's, they, in their naivete', gave them a list with the 515-G series in it.

    3. They claim that the TANGERINETM Radial Phase Plug is theirs - it's NOT - it's BILL's!!! Not only that, but the Trademark is NOT theirs, either! They did NOT buy it when they bought the 6 the DID buy from Telex! They don't own MANTARAYTM, either!

    Personally, I find everything that ALT & ALPRo are doing as a disturbingly dishonest attempt to make people THINK that THEY are THE Altec Lansing everyone's heard about!

    I'll have more by Tuesday evening.....

    Until then, I offer my standard CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!!
    Todd W. White, Owner & Webmaster
    Altec Lansing's (unofficial) Homepage
    http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/

  8. #23
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    well, allright.......

    So I see I am not the ONLY skeptic! All I know is what I know from all my years listening and using various audio components and speakers! And Altec ( real Altec ) is my favorite!

    They paid TOO much attention to every other little detail ( IMO ) to have overlooked or made a mistake with something as critical as the systems sensitivity. And even if they didnt make a mistake, it just dosent sound correct the specs they are publishing!

    Now, lets say they are NOS components! The specs still dont jive with comparable systems specs from years ago, info located in OUR library! A7 cabinets with 515-8g woofers should still yeild more then what Altec Lansing Technologies is printing!

    As I said before, they paid TOO much attention to every little detail to really have overlooked this!

    But if these speakers are as good as they claim,. they really do need to be in a proper showroom setup correctly to be auditioned and heard! I would never purchase something THIS expensive sight unseen!

    I have two woofers from Iconic Mfg and they ARE indeed EXTREMELY efficient. Their output jives with what I read posted on their site.

  9. #24
    Member Todd W. White's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Thanks Scott,

    I think it is important to point out that THE Altec, escpecially past the late '70's, was VERY good and VERY consistant in their specifications!

    For YEARS, they were the ONLY professional loudspeaker company to use the AES standard methods for rating their products' power handling capacity and frequency response!

    My old friend Jerry Hubbard was VERY meticulous about this, hence the tremendous amount of detail in the specification sheets in later years. The goof on the A7-8G system was NOT his - it lay flat in the lap of the marketing people, as I recall.

    What's really funny about all of this is that ALT is NOT actually going back to a "classic" A7 for it's model!

    The original, REAL A7's used an 811 horn, 800 cycle crossover, and a different woofer than the one they are offering!

    Later, THE Altec offered the A7-500, using the 511 horn and a 500-cycle crossover, which worked well in cinema applications, but wasn't nearly as musical, IMHO.

    The home versions of the A7 used various crossover frequencies and woofers, but the best sounding ones, IMHO, were the ones with the 811 and 800-cycle crossover.

    All that being said, the CLASSIC A7 has -

    1. A small-format 802/902 driver (NO rear loading cap, hence the "T" designation).


    2. An 811-series horn (interesting how they didn't fix the problems with the 511 - I'll bet it STILL rings like a cowbell!).

    3. A 416-series woofer - the most popular and BEST sounding being the 416A and 416-8B.


    One would THINK they'd have done their homework more thoroughly!

    This new mutant clone uses a 515-G series woofer, rather than the 416!

    Yes, the 515-G series IS more efficient and sounds better in vented bass horns than ANY of the other 515's that THE Altec ever built, and yes, all of the big VOTT's used some version of the 515, but the A7 was a DIFFERENT critter...

    The A7 was a small version of the VOTT, intended for use in small motion picture theatres. The added bass that comes from the wings on the larger systems was not available from the A7, because it was designed to go into rooms that wouldn't accomodate them.

    SO - Hilliard put a DIFFERENT woofer in it, one that had better LF response, and was nearly as efficient (extra efficiency was deemed unnecessary, since the A7 was supposed to go into a smaller room), amd the extra low end offered a reasonable and acceptable compromise.

    The 803, and especially it's progeny, the 416, did really well in the A7 system.

    I'll have more soon......
    Todd W. White, Owner & Webmaster
    Altec Lansing's (unofficial) Homepage
    http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/

  10. #25
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    hmmm

    Very interesting! I also had the 811,s for mids years ago.

    My favorite woofer was always the 421 series. I know it isnt 100% accurate, but its efficiency and its sound, well, it was good for dance music! Real good.

    Now I have another question. What are those ribs behind the flange of the 511 horn on the new Alpro version? These werent on the originals. Do they make any kind of sonic difference?

    Now I have to say this. At this time it is starting to appear that there are TOO many different Altec,s coming to market. And this IS what will kill it all! The vintage guys are gonna see things that tip them off to differences from Years ago. And if the NEW stuff doesnt sound right, be it Alpro, Altec lansing technologys, GPA, Iconic or whatever, it will reflect not only on the Particular brand that was purchased, but any system bearing name or resemblance to Altec products! You know Im right!

    I do know its getting very confusing, and angering as well. If sombodys gonna make the stuff, make it right the first time, or dont make it at all!

    WILL THE REAL ALTEC PLEASE STAND UP!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 05-25-2003 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #26
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    Who's had an opportunity to listen to these new production A7's?

    Hi, fellow Lansing Heritage contributors:

    Does anybody have any comments to share based on first-hand listening experiences with the new A7?

    Regards,
    Charley

  12. #27
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    do you know....

    where they have them set up? I would love to audition these.

    BTW, I didnt mean to be negative, but I find discrepancy abound! Mis printing specs, the company should know exact figures.

    They may sound absolutely amazing, I wish they had a showroom.

  13. #28
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    Scott,

    Did you contact them to help clear up the many questions?

  14. #29
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    no, tommorow

    I didnt get a chance to call today. But, I know that even if the 515-8G woofers sensitivity were only 97db free air, horn loading it would give an acoustic gain of 3-4 db! So, the LF section should really be more like 100-101db. if the woofer has a higher free air sens, then you will get even higher efficiency.

    However, in light of their claim to have manufactured this classic speaker system to exacting specification of the originals, using original tooling, and the highest quality materials, you gotta stop and wonder why they dont know the CORRECT specifications ( sensitivity ) of their products!

    I WILL make that call tommorow, and I will also ask them where I can hear them, but I gotta agree with Todd on one of his points. These may be in fact copys using NOS components.

  15. #30
    Member Todd W. White's Avatar
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    Well, turns out Bill DID make the drivers and horns for these clones - not sure how many he sold them, but I suspect it was only a few...

    As I stated before, when THE Altec Lansing published new spec sheets for the A7-8G in the late 1980's, they made SEVERAL mistakes on the the spec sheets (no - they were NOT accurate "corrections" of previous errors!), something Dr. John K. Hilliard and I both screamed loud and long to them about...

    The SAD thing is that Sparkomatic (Oooops - I mean Altec Lansing Technologies) probably did NO real testing of "their" A7 - they just copied one that they had...

    If I were rich enough and dumb enough to buy one of these, I would AT LEAST want to -

    1. See the TEF or anechoic frequency response of the ENTIRE SYSTEM.

    2. See the polars, especially at crossover.

    3. HEAR them IN PERSON in a controlled listening environment.

    4. Expect to see it in a solid-wood (no ply) walnut, oak, cherry, or mahogany cabinet, suitable for a rich guy's home environment! The old Altec MAGNIFICENT was JUST such a critter (although it seems to me they used non-voided plywood, but no matter - it was SOLID and BEAUTIFUL!). ANYTHING BUT BLACK SPLATTER-TEXTURE!!!!! For the HOME? Tell, me, what WERE they thinking????

    5. Expect to have a high-level security system installed in my home as part of the whopping $ 4,300.00 EACH these bozo's are charging for the thing!

    6. Get a vasectomy and make sure I had no offspring - kids and grandkids would be VERBOTEN! around these things, especially if they are in furniture quality cabinets!
    Todd W. White, Owner & Webmaster
    Altec Lansing's (unofficial) Homepage
    http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/

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