room size for big monitors ?

[rs237]

Hello CONVERGENCE,

thanks for the cool picture.
I think I will be only a 15 "woofer, and a similar Speaker of the Summa build.

regards

juergen

[Allanvh5150]

Hi Juergen,

My motto about cabinet verse room size is simple. If the cabinet fits in the room, the room is big enough.

[Akira]

Your 13 foot room would be at about 43Hz. You'd only hear the bass outside the room.

I could be wrong but...I believe a dimension of 13' would yield an uninterupted response of 86Hz not 43Hz as the positive and negative phase of the frequency would cut in half your low end response.

FOR THIS REASON: the minimum clearance for a control room is considered to be 18' which yields a response of 63Hz. This btw, is the exact frequency you will find on the original Neve consoles--63Hz, which I don't think is a coincidence since it has since been adopted as standard by many other manufacturers. (63Hz is considered a very musical frequency and the heart of the 'English drum sound' which years later gave birth to what we commonly accept as modern recording techniques)

MORE IMPORTANTLY...This DOES NOT mean you can not hear anything below that frequency! You certainly can hear lower tones but, where control rooms are concerned you want to hear a clear uninterupted low end fundamental as opposed to reflections and harmonics which gain their wave length from bouncing back and forth.

p.s. Soffet mounting is one of the best ways to improve your sound, especially with older 'box' type monitors. Soffet mounting makes the walls disappear as the first sound wave hits you directly. Out of phase back reflection is mostly eliminated. A well designed control room is NOT DEAD; it is neutral. There is a lot of controlled dampening to kill bad reflections combined with live surfaces to keep the recording from sounding dead and to provide an accurate translation of the finished product. This along with soffet mounting makes the speaker 'float' and sound effortless.

[Allanvh5150]

63Hz is very musical indeed. A 22" inch kick drum is about bang on 63Hz.

[edgewound]

I could be wrong but...I believe a dimension of 13' would yield an uninterupted response of 86Hz not 43Hz as the positive and negative phase of the frequency would cut in half your low end response.

Don't disagree with me...disagree with Dr. Floyd Toole.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about...kers_rooms.pdf

Doesn't it make sense to have a big room for big speakers...and vice versa?

[Akira]

Don't disagree with me...disagree with Dr. Floyd Toole.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about...kers_rooms.pdf

According to FLoyd Toole, the example he gives states that a room 20' long will have a mode @ 28Hz. This is a standing wave and not an uninterupted wave length. Thus his calculations state that the first mode is found by DOUBLING the length of the room. I am referring to minimum dimensions for a properly constructed control room. While I do not know the physics behind it, I have always accepted the wisdom of the recording industry that states 18' is the minimum workable dimension to produce an UNINTERUPTED wave length of 63Hz.

Doesn't it make sense to have a big room for big speakers...and vice versa?

I've always felt that a certain size box is ideal for a certain size room. But, I guess it's like a car. A certain size engine is ideal for a certain size car but, there seems to be an appeal to having an engine that can over power the mass it requires.

[Akira]

63Hz is very musical indeed. A 22" inch kick drum is about bang on 63Hz.

Sounds like you've done some recording! Either that or your old like me and perhaps favor some of the older 'classic' ways of reproducing music.

[Allanvh5150]

Sounds like you've done some recording! Either that or your old like me and perhaps favor some of the older 'classic' ways of reproducing music.

Well I'm not so old I have done a bit of recording over the years but I have worked mainly with live bands inside. I always treated my work as "in the studio" and we always had a great sound. We always had JBL as well and I have used em all. Allan.

[edgewound]

I have always accepted the wisdom of the recording industry that states 18' is the minimum workable dimension to produce an UNINTERUPTED wave length of 63Hz.
.

The answer lies in your statement. An UNINTERRUPTED wavelength of 63Hz is 18' (17.93' if you use 1130 ft/sec speed of sound). A smaller room would choke off bass response.

Therefore...to get the full sub-bass response before standing waves have a chance to kick in...the math would dictate that a big room with big volume would be the best practice to house big speakers. A 20Hz room should be at least 113 feet long/wide, preferably asymmetric. Ever
wonder why bigass subwoofers are heard outside of a car's interior? ...like 20, 40,50...200 feet away? Space. Concert engineers would always rather work outdoors sans walls for good reason....He/she don't hafta bother with'em.

But you already knew that

[Ian Mackenzie]

Edge,

I hate to say but you are talking theory out of your a%^&.

The context of pure theory is often mis applied to make a point.

What actually happens in a real room depends on a lot of issues such as wall constuction/treatment, the exact location of the speaker and this listener.

The size of the loudspeaker incidentally is irrelevent. For example a Carver Sunfire sub is 12 inches square...I guess you call that small and its okay to put it in a small room.

As a matter of fact most studios incorprorate bass traps and other treatments to control standing waves, but as a rule they are not particularly interested in sub terrain base.

The term big speaker usually inmplies big woofer. Big woofers have higher power anding and lower distortion, that is their key advantage. They o not necessarily go lower than a smaller woofer.

[edgewound]

Edge,

I hate to say but you are talking theory out of your a%^&.

The context of pure theory is often mis applied to make a point.

What actually happens in a real room depends on a lot of issues such as wall constuction/treatment, the exact location of the speaker and this listener.

The size of the loudspeaker incidentally is irrelevent. For example a Carver Sunfire sub is 12 inches square...I guess you call that small and its okay to put it in a small room.

As a matter of fact most studios incorprorate bass traps and other treatments to control standing waves, but as a rule they are not particularly interested in sub terrain base.

The term big speaker usually inmplies big woofer. Big woofers have higher power anding and lower distortion, that is their key advantage. They o not necessarily go lower than a smaller woofer.

Read my post again before your wine soaks in, Ian.

First of all...my post said "best practice" , which is purely based on the physics of very long soundwaves, and Akira's post about 63Hz and 18' prove that.

This thread started life as recommendations for a room addition that will house huge monitors that go very low...not the proper way to build a recording studio control room. I also pointed to Dr. Floyd Tooles' Room Mode calculator for reference. Aside from that, big ass speakers shouldn't be used as headphones...my opinion, of course.

Most all good practices start with theory...and then get compromised due to practicality.

Yeah...a Sunfire subwoofer is a 12" cube that moves gobs of air. Would you rather be in a broom closet or a Great Room listening to it.

I'll take the Great Room, thanks very much.

And BTW...I only let you insult me like that because were friends.

[Allanvh5150]

Just to add something else, what if our speaker cabinet is in an anechoic chamber where there are no standing waves whatsoever. Then, theoretically, would it make any difference what the size of the room was?

[Mr. Widget]

Just to add something else, what if our speaker cabinet is in an anechoic chamber where there are no standing waves whatsoever. Then, theoretically, would it make any difference what the size of the room was?

Nope. Theoretically.

That said, I don't know if there are any anechoic chambers big enough to be "flat" below 25-30Hz.


Widget

[John]

big ass speakers shouldn't be used as headphones...my opinion, of course.

Don't tell the owners in Japan

[rs237]

Hello
Very interesting discussion. Thank you to all those who are involved. I have a lot of new information. When bass Proplem I agree with Ian, the problems, the space regardless of whether I make a small or big box use.
But I am in the Summa, in this Tread was called love. It will be my next project. I have 2452HSL and 2234, and will build a horn itself.

regards

juergen