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Thread: Explain Tad woofers ???? Help.

  1. #61
    Member KCCT82's Avatar
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    I am actually considering the construction of twin bass cabinets underneath the 2251's...housing TAD 1601c or JBL 1500AL like Merlin used. I could be waiting a long time to find a pair of TAD 2404.
    Good luck finding the 1601c, probably harder to find than the 2404 which in my opinion is already too hard Better off trying to find b's. Enjoy, they look very nice
    Keith

  2. #62
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    Anyone having the schematics of the filter of the 2251?

    Regards
    Harry

  3. #63
    Senior Member stephane RAME's Avatar
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    The big sound

    The big sound
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  4. #64
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephane RAME View Post
    The big sound . . . .
    Hmmm . . . . having double horns in a home stereo system is silly and counterproductive. Unless owner's a deaf old rocker he doesn't need them. Anybody else playing that system to the volume potential of the speakers is going to be deaf soon. The double HF sources will screw up the soundstage and imaging, even with excellent treble drivers like that. In my experience, even double woofers playing up to a 650 crossover point can give a discernible and unwelcome sense of multiple sources. I believe systems with multiple drivers covering a given bandwidth will work well at a certain focus point only. Those woofers above and below, for example, will only be working together when the listening position is centered between them at some certain distance. Before and after, below and above, it will be smeared. With the added problem of side by side woofers playing out of the frequency range of effective acoustic doubling, in speakers that cannot be toed in, there will be no spot that is entirely satisfactory. I doubt very much this system is focused anywhere.

    Owner of this system should do himself and some other lucky person a big favor by selling him the extra HTF (Hard To Find) horns and drivers. I would even use just one woofer per side, and if he wants more low bass, cut the extras in low as in the JBL 4435 and Everest II or get some good subwoofers.

    This system looks like a show piece to me, and that's about it. (photo reproduced below)

    David
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  5. #65
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    I assume everybody here knows that Bart Locanthi designed the TAD stuff.
    Harvey "Hifi" Gerst
    ("Hifi" was my nickname at JBL.)

  6. #66
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst View Post
    I assume everybody here knows that Bart Locanthi designed the TAD stuff.
    I think, mostly, yes, although the most recent generation, the 1601C, 1102, 4003 and 2002, would have to be somebody else's work, wouldn't they?

    David

  7. #67
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    I have two questions, one about voice coil depth, the other about frames:

    TAD is explicit that 1601A, B and C and 1602 voice coils underhang the magnetic gap, but seems to equivocate on the 1603. Is the 1603 voice coil depth the same as the others? . . . .
    I raised this question a few months ago and never got an answer. Today I've (unofficially) been told the voice coil winding depth of the 1603 is 24mm.

    It apparently has become common to recone the TAD Alnico frames with the cone kit for the 1603 (ferrite). The TAD 1601, 1601a, 1601b and 1602 woofers are designed with an underhung voice coil/gap. With the 1603 cone in those frames I believe they will be OVERHUNG.

    I don't know why this is being done. Durability? Efficiency? A current seller on ebay says his TAD tech tells him it gives the 1601c sound. I doubt that myself.

    BUYER BEWARE: However you feel about the underhung/overhung question and its effect on sound quality, here's the thing. If you buy a used TAD 1601, 1601a, 1601b or 1602 Alnico woofer that has had a 1603 cone installed, if that in fact makes it overhung, and if it has been used in sound reinforcement or in a commercial studio (where most TAD woofers are), or even, possibly, at home, it is very likely the magnet has been partially discharged, for as Greg Timbers has told us, it is Alnico woofers with overhung voice coils that will desensitize if they are driven hard. So, if you are thinking of bidding on one of these FrankenTAD's you should count on having it remagnetized at least, and, probably, reconed.

    David

  8. #68
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    ...the most recent generation, the 1601C, 1102, 4003 and 2002...
    Interestingly while I think all of these later designs are remarkable and offer exceptional performance, the 1601C and 1102 have been discontinued and the 2002 and the 4003 are now only available through special order. I wonder how long they will be available at all. The ET-703 which is a very old design has also been put on the special order list.

    For you classic Bart Locanthi TAD fans, the 1601 A and B as well as the 4001 and 2001 compression drivers are still quite available, and still quite good too.


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  9. #69
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Today I've (unofficially) been told the voice coil winding depth of the 1603 is 24mm.
    Thanks for the info... pretty interesting.

    Funny how there are many guys out there who are certain that they "know" what it takes to "fix" these drivers from JBL, TAD, Altec etc.


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  10. #70
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    Very Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave

    I have two questions, one about voice coil depth, the other about frames:
    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    TAD is explicit that 1601A, B and C and 1602 voice coils underhang the magnetic gap, but seems to equivocate on the 1603. Is the 1603 voice coil depth the same as the others? . . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    I raised this question a few months ago and never got an answer. Today I've (unofficially) been told the voice coil winding depth of the 1603 is 24mm.
    It apparently has become common to recone the TAD Alnico frames with the cone kit for the 1603 (ferrite). The TAD 1601, 1601a, 1601b and 1602 woofers are designed with an underhung voice coil/gap. With the 1603 cone in those frames I believe they will be OVERHUNG.
    Dave , where is this explicit info that states those models are underhung ?

    - All my digging about for info has led me to the conclusion ( perhaps wrongfully ) that all TAD 16" woofers are overhung ( 1601x , 1602 & 1603 ) .
    - Additionally,
    - I've never seen ( from the pics I've perused ) enough top-plate height to support the underhung topology ( especially with the claimed Xmax & power handling specs. ) .

    <> Earl K

  11. #71
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    - All my digging about for info has led me to the conclusion ( perhaps wrongfully ) that all TAD 16" woofers are overhung ( 1601x , 1602 & 1603 ) .
    - Additionally,
    - I've never seen ( from the pics I've perused ) enough top-plate height to support the underhung topology ( especially with the claimed Xmax & power handling specs. ) .

    <> Earl K
    You are right Earl. I once did the maths but people like to believe in rumours. It's more exciting than plain reality

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...99&postcount=2
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  12. #72
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    . . . . I once did the maths . . . .
    I hope my reading is better than your "maths." I quote from the paragraph on the voice coil: "Since the coil stays completely within the magnetic gap even during peak excursions . . . ." Since the woofer is modeled on the LE15A, this would be expected.

    This is available on any TAD PRO website; the entries for the other mentioned woofers read similarly:
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  13. #73
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    Hi Dave,

    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    "Since the coil stays completely within the magnetic gap even during peak excursions . . . ." Since the woofer is modeled on the LE15A, this would be expected.
    - I have to admit that I do have all the "displayed" TAD info, saved here as pdf files .
    - I interpreted the above phrase differently .
    - I can understand your interpretation & see where your conviction comes from .


  14. #74
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    260.000 Maxwell in a deep enough gap for an underhung construction and 1.18 Tesla is physically not possible! These numbers mean a short gap.

    You do not need math you just need to understand magnetism and the meaning of maxwell and Tesla.

    As english is only my second language it is too difficult to explain it. Let's make it simpler:
    The huge 1500AL Magnet reaches 675.000 Maxwell (Flux lines throughout gap thickness) but only 0.53 Tesla (conversion to flux density). That is because of the veeeery deep gap.

    Calm down, I didn't understand this in 4 years university. Later when my interest in speakers was growing I digged out my old notes and finally got it.
    BLS Reference on Passlabs XA 30.5 + Everest DD66000 clone on Pass XA 100.5

  15. #75
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    I think what we need, and what I was hoping for to begin with, is a reconer to jump in here with some measurements, or someone privy to TAD technical details to share them.

    David

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