L166's Damaged by UPS- A question of Value

[Gino]

I bought a pair of near mint JBL L166's a few weeks ago. When they arrived, there was cabinet and grill damage due to insufficient packing and probably poor handling. The shipper has agreed to pay a claim based on value,but thye need me to first prove the value. I was wondering if anyone had an idea as to how to prove the value of these relatively rare speakers. The condition of the pairs I've seen selling on ebay lately are not a good as these which are near almost mint. I would think these would probably fetch $600.00 on ebay if they were to sell there. I may just get a bill of sale from the seller, but beyond that, it's all conjecture. At any rate, if anyone had any ideas how to validate a value, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Gino

[mesickmoose]

UPS is trying to make you go away and jump through hoops. Write yourself a receipt from your own company or a "bill of sale". if they question it just tell them it's a legitimate bill of sale. Just because it is not a "big business" so to speak does not make it a valid contract. If you insured the speakers for a specific value I'm assuming that was the value the buyer or seller had in mind as reasonable replacement. If they still have a problem then tell them to fix them or replace them to original condition as a remedy. Eventually you will win if you have a valid claim.

Now.......do yourself a favor and stop using UPS. I either use fedex ground or dhl. Lately DHL. Have yet to a have any damage with them and they are getting the job done with less cost.

I not only had a lot of damages with UPS, they would flat out lose...don't ask me how they did it...at least 2 packages a year.

[Gino]

I think I'll talk with the seller and make out a bill of sale. That'll have to do. Thanks for your advice, Gino

[BMWCCA]

I bought a pair of near mint JBL L166's a few weeks ago. When they arrived, there was cabinet and grill damage due to insufficient packing . . .

Why is the seller never responsible? If I were UPS, I'd fight this crap, but then time is money. I once bought a C37 cabinet that had been dropped so hard by UPS that the D130 actually broke loose and was hanging by only one bolt, swinging around. The entire cabinet was cracked, too. In this case I blame the shipping company because nothing could have protected them from this treatment. In your case . . . well, it looks like you said it already. I know the temptation is to get whatever pie-in-the-sky value you think your purchase was really worth. The reality is you said you just bought them so how hard is it to just verify the selling price? :dont-know

[majick47]

I realize its too late for you but what I'v been doing for quite a while with speakers and electronics is to make it very clear to the seller that I require the items to be packaged in a specific manner and not left to the UPS store to fill a box with foam peanuts which will do nothing to protect the contents. Some sellers wash their hands of any responsibility for damage and have a UPS store package the item. I seriously doubt most UPS stores have a clue as to how to package a turntable or speakers and now the chase is on to file a claim for damaged goods. Even after you recover the money your back on the hunt for a replacement thats probably going to be in poorer condition and more expensive to boot. I'v had excellent service from FedEx and NO damage.

[jaynemo]

The shipping contract is between the person shipping the goods and UPS. Your job as the receiver of the damaged goods is to simply file the shipping damage claim! As far as damages and claims the package value amount and respective insurance should have already been established and paid for before the package was shipped. So what am I missing here?

[mesickmoose]

that is true... the seller is the person insured and they have to explain the damages with the shipper. The receiver is due a refund from the seller for full purchase price.

One interresting tidbit is that often you will get the damaged goods back and an insurance settlement. With a speaker you may have some parts that may be salvagable.

as for the paperwork, a bill of sale is a bill of sale.

also the shippers will inspect to make sure that they aren't getting ripped off which my guess would be happens a lot.

[Zilch]

For insurance purposes, the value is what you paid for it, independent of its potential worth to a fool. That's what you need to prove.

Also, the question of who is "responsible" is not so clear as described above. Title transfers to the purchaser when the item is given by the seller to the carrier under UCC regs if shipment is FOB shipping point. Buyer paying shipping costs is defacto in determining that the contract is not FOB destination.

Thus, while the seller is responsible to suitably package the item for safe transport, he contracts with the carrier on the buyer's behalf. Sellers are not responsible for delivering the product safely into the buyer's hands UNLESS the contract says so....

[Gino]

Thanks for your replies. In my case, the shipper was a UPS store who also did the packing which helps my case a bit, although the damage is done to the speakers. The seller/shipper left explicit instructions for the UPS store people to pack them right. I think we both assumed that since they were taking responsibility for the packing job by insuring the shipment, that they'd be packed correctly. It turns out they were packed using foam peanuts instead of rigid foam board. At any rate, I faxed a bill of sale to the UPS store and we'll see where that goes. Thanks to all for your responses. The good thing is that the drivers were not damaged. I'm hoping to have the cabinets repaired and maybe buy a new grill if I can find one. Thanks again, Gino

[hjames]

Do UPS stores even HAVE rigid foam board for packing?
I mean, I go and buy 1 inch pink building foam at Homedespot for $8-9 sheet when I need it, but I don't think I've seen it at the UPS store ... and besides bubblewrap'n'beads is so easy to store and use (grin)

Good luck with your speakers, I had a mess last summer back with a PERFECT Yamaha receiver some knucklehead shipped the same way that got bashed, crushed, and ruined in shipping (they packed lousy themselves and used USPS), but I did get my purchase money & shipping back. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...91&postcount=6

Thanks for your replies. In my case, the shipper was a UPS store who also did the packing which helps my case a bit, although the damage is done to the speakers. The seller/shipper left explicit instructions for the UPS store people to pack them right. I think we both assumed that since they were taking responsibility for the packing job by insuring the shipment, that they'd be packed correctly. It turns out they were packed using foam peanuts instead of rigid foam board. At any rate, I faxed a bill of sale to the UPS store and we'll see where that goes. Thanks to all for your responses. The good thing is that the drivers were not damaged. I'm hoping to have the cabinets repaired and maybe buy a new grill if I can find one. Thanks again, Gino

[BMWCCA]

While both Zilch and Moose make good points, in the case of UPS, the seller/shipper is paying both the freight and the insurance. It's their insurance, not the buyer's. In my one case with UPS, UPS had to pick-up the speaker and return it to the UPS office at its place of origin. UPS then reimbursed the shipper/seller for the amount of insurance stated on the UPS shipping order—no more, no less. It doesn't matter what the item is worth, it matters how much it was insured for. That's why you buy insurance in the first place.

The item was then returned to the shipper/seller who reimbursed me (and tossed the rest in the dumpster!). UPS didn't want any interaction with me, the buyer, other than picking up the package.

[Gino]

In my case, I emailed pictures to UPS directly as I did not want them to inflict any further damage by picking them up and taking them who knows where to inspect them. They still sound great as I had the woofers refoamed. I bought them from the original owner who bought them new in 1976. He has taken such great care of them over the years, that it's a shame this happened. I've having a great time doing a/b comparisons with my L100's, which I bought new in 1977. Thank you all for your collective advice. Gino

[mesickmoose]

good luck gino, just don't give up...

thanks for the pic bmw... i still won't use ups.

[jaynemo]

Great point on the insured value, ie it all comes down to what amount you insured it for and then respectively paid for. Case in point I just shipped a pair of reproduction Altec Valencia Grills made out of polystyrene. Based on a past experience, the buyer wanted them insured for $1500 and was willing to pay for it, although they only sold for $300. You dont have to prove squat as far as value is concerned, you already paid for it. Another interesting tidbit a guy told me about UPS. If you you want your package handled with kid gloves, insure it for $5000. The package travels a completley different route, basically hand carried and never sees a conveyor.

[Steve Schell]

UPS delivers, but sometimes the goods have fallen out of the packaging by the time they arrive...