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Thread: CD player suggestions

  1. #16
    Senior Member greyhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That hasn't been my experience... I have found that even comparing a couple of low priced players ($200-$400) they sounded obviously different. However I would not say that one sounded obviously better than the other.

    The best CD sound I have heard in my system was using a mid priced, ($1200) player as a transport and using an external DAC. The sound stage opened up, the highs were slightly less edgy, and there was slightly more "air" or transparency... all of these improvements were similar to the improvements one hears in an analog system, though not as extreme. If you are one who thinks that CD sound is as good or better than analog, then there is no need to spend the money on an expensive player or quality external DAC.


    Widget

    we are a group of about 50 people that ar going to do a listening test with anologue and digital recordings from the same master tape.
    so what exactly will be the difference between a record and a cd when they both come from exactly the same source. were especialy interested in dynamics and wheter you can hear distortion in the higher frequencies.


    @ rolf. using electronics to level the output is a better way. we have also done that.
    luckely we have some tech heads .
    the way i described is the way i do test at home..
    it does the trick
    finally i have a pair of 604 8g's....there not easy to find in the netherlands

  2. #17
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    What kind of master tape is it?

  3. #18
    Senior Member greyhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    What kind of master tape is it?
    i believe its a DAT tape.

    on of the forum mods is also owner of a recording studio.
    he sid that he thinks he can arrange recordings from 1 master. album aswell as cd.
    but he wasnt sure yet.
    http://www.beaufortstudio.nl/index.php?pg=4

    apparatuur means equipment
    he prefers the analogue masterrecording
    finally i have a pair of 604 8g's....there not easy to find in the netherlands

  4. #19
    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That hasn't been my experience... I have found that even comparing a couple of low priced players ($200-$400) they sounded obviously different. .Widget
    Absolutly agree ....I have a Carver CD that is not nearly as neutral as all the others and produces much more bass.

  5. #20
    Senior Member greyhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    Absolutly agree ....I have a Carver CD that is not nearly as neutral as all the others and produces much more bass.

    nothing wrong with that but I think it has to be distortion that causes these differrences.
    finally i have a pair of 604 8g's....there not easy to find in the netherlands

  6. #21
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound View Post
    so what exactly will be the difference between a record and a cd when they both come from exactly the same source.
    First of all you must use an "analog" record... if you use a vinyl record that was originally recorded or mastered in the digital domain the differences can shrink dramatically.

    You must also realize that most vinyl albums use compression and have a bit of a pumped up and slightly soft bottom end due to issues with the record manufacturing process and inherent limitations of that medium.

    The best comparison between analog and CDs would be an analog master tape and a CD. If you listen to the high rez digital master you should hear a sound that is very close to the analog and perhaps better especially on the lower frequencies... a comparison between the digital master and the filtered and down sampled "red book" CD should also be very telling... it will show you just how much is lost.

    Even with the very real short comings of the vinyl record, comparing a well made vinyl album with a CD will show you what is lost in the low rez world of digital... not all CDs are created equally though and some are much better than others. Typically a CD will sound more centrally focused... approaching mono, and the apparent sound stage will lose depth and width. The top end will be a little hard sounding and the sense of "air" or the quality that cymbals, triangles, and many other instruments have where it seems the sound tapers off and extends beyond our hearing becomes truncated.

    You don't need exceptional hearing or even sophisticated gear to hear this. I have played comparison demos for fellow "audiophiles" and for average people who don't even own a boombox... no one has ever not heard the differences.

    I am not saying that a CD is unlistenable... I listen to them for most of listening, but for a really enjoyable experience you should spin some vinyl at least once in a while.


    Widget

  7. #22
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    I completely and totally agree with Mr. Widget on this. I have done many comparisons for friends, family and neighbors and the results are always the same, "Wow, I didn't know records could sound better than a CD". Unfortunately, the Redbook audio CD format is just not "high def" enough to be totally transparent in the recording and reproduction of music. If you have a good enough sound system, you can hear its limitations. This isn't a condemnation of all that's digital (as SACD and even DVD-Audio are pretty spectacular), it's just the fact that a 25-year old standard based on 16-bit 44khz samples is getting long in the tooth.

    Getting back on topic, I am of the opinion that CD players are not worth spending thousands of dollars on.
    That being said there are differences that can be heard. For example some testing at a friend's house between the A/D section of his Toshiba DVD player and the same CD played through a Lucid A/D outboard converter clearly showed the inferiority of the Toshiba A/D section.
    Bass was much better on the Lucid and there was a little more "air" as well. However, playing some LPs after that quickly rendered the experiment moot - we didn't wish to continue listening to CD's . Keep in mind this was done with some pretty good vinyl gear (Modded Linn LP12 and Sumiko Blue Point Special) and a very nice Conrad Johnson tube preamp. Plugging in a $100 ebay turntable into the "phono" section of a modern A/V receiver is not likely to endear anyone to the format...

    jblnut

  8. #23
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    I tend to agree. But its all by degree.

    Some CD's are far beter than others.

    Chesky, Blue Note and some other labels are quite good.

    On certain CD's there is not a lot in it between SACD and standard Red Book. I did that test with the DA10 Lavy Dac. As mentioned previously there is improved dynamics, bass and a better top end. Its takes a bit of fiddling to get it right. You need a good transport and a good digital cable.

    But I must say its easlier to (cheaper) to approach vinyl with a reasonable priced SACS player and disks.

    In repect to Cd player comparisions discussed earlier there are a lot of machines that are mediocre and beyond that there is alot to be said for the non over samping dac chips and upsampling which help create a more analogue sound.

    Both systems improve the accuracy of the DA Cd Red book process but are not perfect.

    You need to spend money to get a good front end in the vinyl department to appreciate what good viyl is about.

    I tend to use the analogy that sound Cd is like building blocks..big and chunky but not much resolution compared to vinyl which can have far better fine resolution.

    Ian

  9. #24
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Analog vs Digital

    Hi Friends.

    I have said this ones before, and this is the second time. WHY?

    Because I believe in talking, not violence.

    Technology is going backwards?

    In the beginning we had Edison's "Mary had a little lamb" on a "roll"?

    Then we got it on a "stone" disk.

    Then we got got it on Vinyl, and then we got it on CD, DVD and ?

    How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on? I have heard some people say: "the wort thing that has happen is the introduction of stereo".

    Some live in a world that has past away... gone ... and that is is the analog world.

    Why can't you just accept that the world today IS digital? and try to do the best of it, instead of claiming "it was better before"?

    Idiot's! Live and let live today! not in the past. ... Or do you wish to be back at the time "Mary had a little Lamb"?

    I believe SOME of you really will that, and I am sorry for you.

  10. #25
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    lol ?

    im living in the past cause current way of thinking is 5 layer PCB board, 1 cent opamp ( 4580 fame) , 10 cent delta sigma converter.

  11. #26
    Senior Member rs237's Avatar
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    Hello Rolf,

    You always believe everything new is better?

    regards

    juergen

    PS: 90% of every major speaker manufacturers use to your presentations as a source of vinyl, not CD

  12. #27
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    for your interest, TI resumed production of Burr-Brown's big kid r2r , PCM1704 full time , no longer NRND. Actually they put PCM54 -56 on NRND.

  13. #28
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rs237 View Post
    Hello Rolf,

    You always believe everything new is better?

    regards

    juergen

    PS: 90% of every major speaker manufacturers use to your presentations as a source of vinyl, not CD
    No, I do not believe everything new is better. But regarding sound source, Yes. I have tried listening to "vinyl rigs" that cost about $25000 compared to a CD Player about $1000, and the difference is close to zero. So why pay 25 if you get about the same for 1????

    As I said, we are about to do some serious tests. I will inform all about the result.

  14. #29
    Senior Member rs237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    As I said, we are about to do some serious tests. I will inform all about the result.

    I look forward.

    regards
    juergen

  15. #30
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    Hi Friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    I have said this ones before, and this is the second time. WHY? How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on?
    Hello Rolf!
    Dude, you may be taking this way too personally, I do not know if "digital denial" is prevalent here (on the forum & in general) but I do'nt think that is the case. We are all aware that digital music is here to stay, for sure, but that doesnt mean that most people will nescessarily embrace it and all its ramificationsl. Personally I cant get into mp3s or i tunes, they just annoy me and want nothing to do with them. I like something more tangible, the only good thing about them that I see is they are convineint to transport and store and would consider them solely in that light otherwise I'll pass & live in the past gladly. In relation to digital music, and the "it was better before syndrome" that you mentioned, some people might really believe that and no amount of arguing, data, or money/gear or evidence to the contrary will ever change their mind (you know the type), but I think most people (conciously on unconciously) are just fond of playing analog music because it makes them feel good. Probably brings back memories of their yout, and the ritual of playing records and things happen in their brains and chemicals (legal ones, produced by the body) are released into the old blood stream and they feel good, hence analog is "good!" and its all very subtle but its happening on some level.
    There is a simple pleasure that is derived from playing a record that will never be duplicated by a cd much less mp3's & itunes and it has nothing to do with the quality of sound being produced by the record player or the other equipment being used to generat that sound.

    "Some live in a world that has past away... gone ... and that is is the analog world."
    The mass production of anlog music may be gone (though not entirely, some is till being produced, but nothing compared to when it was the prominent medium) but the format and plenty of material still remains and will probably never be gone entirely. Think about how many records were produced...millions. Getting back to the subject at hand, as has been stated in other thread, some analog music is better than digital and some of it is not, ultimately people will gravitate to what they like and are comfortable/familiar with regardless of wether in actuallity it is inferior or superior to something else or not. Something that is expensive is not always better and something cheap is not always crap (to put it bluntly), it always comes down to personal preference and that is a whole 'nother ball of wax entirely, as they say.

    Now Rolf, when you go and do your test please do not use a $40.00 cd player that would not be fair! (use at least a $50.00 player just kidding) you know what I mean, keep it real (not in a hip hop kind of way).
    I am aware that you have some very nice cd players and turntables as well, if you do not mind me asking, just out of curiosity, what kind of music do you like, what is your power source and most importantly what speakers do you play your music through?
    Have fun and most importantly, enjoy your music, regardless of what format you use.
    Just Play Music.

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