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Thread: Soundtrax FOH

  1. #31
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pangea
    ...isn't it so that some amount of compression on the voice will add to that nearness and airiness on the voice?...
    Hey, Roland...

    Not if I've understood your question. Comp/limiters are used to reduce the dynamic range of the signal. Compressors in-particular, in simplistic sense, raise the quiet pasages and reduce the loud passages. This can be useful for singers with either poor mic etiquette (they wander out of the pattern) or with weak vocal support. You can boost their weak parts, but then, when they "get it right" and are both breathing properly AND are on-axis, their suddenly increased signal is constrained to avoid clipping. Doing this without a compressor (and not "riding the faders"...) you might have boosted the fader to catch the faint parts and then gotten blasted (with feedback) when they "got it right".

    A limiter can be used alone, to merely cap the extreme output of say, a bass guitar (which often clip in hard-driven passages, but are otherwise not needing support for the soft passages).

    Make sense?

    What you may be referring to are effects - or signal processors such as reverb, delay, echo etc., which add presence or the perception the singer is in a large public bath somewhere...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  2. #32
    Senior Moment Member Oldmics's Avatar
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    Howdy Gang
    I was surprised to see this thread revived.Kinda unusual to see a discussion about live sound still kicking.
    To Bo,I did not realise that you had asked another question about D.I. preferences.Sorry for not answering sooner.
    The Radials are some of the nicest sounding boxs out there.I prefer the passive unit (the JDI).
    It is ironic to me that a Jensen transformer from Califorinia is sent to Canada where it is repackaged into the Radial box and then sold in the US (and worldwide),could"nt somebody from the US figure that one out years ago?
    My company is invested into the Countryman D.I. s.There are used as wheel chocks on the trucks when they expire due to there nice heavy metal cases.

    Now to the current thread about compressers.

    The function of a compresser is to reduce the amount of voltage thruout the signal path.This reduction of voltage is done at varying ratios selected by the technician using the compresser.The tech would also specifie the threshold at which the compresser would become active.

    Compression ratios are selected for the amount of current allowed to be induced back into the circuit after compression.Ratios such as 2 to 1, 3 to1 ,and 4 to1 are commonly used on vocals to remove the peak voltages.When used in recording applications,removal of these peak voltages constrain the dynamics.This will allow the vocals to fit into the program material and sound louder than if they were not compressed.

    One thing to remember is that most compressers are broad band voltage seeking devices.If the compresser picks up a voltage peak that is being generated at 1K,it will begin to reduce all voltages.This means that not only is the frequency of 1K is reduced but so is the rest of the bandwidth.That is why frequency dependent compresssers are so valuable.You can compress the particular frequency that is problamatic and not mess with anything else.

    Compressers alone do not raise the levels of program material.
    This is a common misconception.

    Compressers will reduce the dynamic range.With the dynamic range reduced in the program material a small amount of level can be added to the average program material.This is where the gain stage happens and it is usually only a small amount.This is probably where the misconception of compressers raising the gain levels comes from.
    Compression ratios of infinity to 1 are considered limiting.

    I think what Bo is searching for is an expander device.

    Expanders in conjunction with compressers existed on some early film audio devices that are long forgotten.They also exist on the BSS 901 units of which I reley on.The BSS 901 are a 4 band parametric compresser, limiters with expansion capeabilitys.This allows problamatic frequencys to be compressed and other frequencys to be expanded.These are great tools.
    A newcomer into that market is being built by XTA.It is a great sounding device but is limited on the equalisation capacity when compared to the BSS 901.
    Ok,I"m done.
    Oldmics
    Last edited by Oldmics; 04-19-2004 at 11:24 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Oldmics
    With the dynamic range reduced in the program material a small amount of level can be added to the average program material. This is where the gain stage happens and it is usually only a small amount. This is probably where the misconception of compressers raising the gain levels comes from.

    I think what Bo is searching for is an expander device.
    Hey, Oldmics...

    Glad you re-found this Thread! Keep your mouse pointed here, occaisionally - I'll watch for your tips!

    Your description on how using a compressor allows effective gain increase is a better explaination than mine. Ha! I would expect no less from a pro... I still don't think Roland was asking about compressors - I thought maybe he was describing FX?? Maybe not...

    I've got a few expanders in the rack, and enjoy 'em. No de essers, though...

    Hey - if you're still here, did you catch my questions a few posts back on gates? Maybe, via pm (again... ) you could help me "tune" the toms mics to stay closed when the snare, kick and hihat related "noise" is overwhelming the open mics? Not asking too much, here just maybe what your side chain parameters are...? If you ever have the time between load-in and load-out...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  4. #34
    pangea
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    Compressors

    Hi all!

    In general I'm no big fan of compressors, especially not by the over use in broadcasting, where much of the dynamics are lost when the music reaches the listeners.

    But other than that I liked the idea of using compressors/expanders as a way to get noise reduction in the seventies and eighties. I still have quite a few DBX encoded records and one or two DBX 222/224's stashed away somewhere in the drawers. I also had the Boom box and the encoder way back then.
    Why didn't that catch on BTW? Was it that CD's took over and made them redundant, or was it the slight pumping effects that killed them?

    Now I'm looking for something that can be all and do all, like being a crossover, EQ, phase/room correction, compressor/limiter/gain and from what ive come up with thus far, it seems I will have to take a closer look to the Behringer Ultradrive PRO DCX2496.
    Does anyone of you, have any experience with this one and who could recommend it, or perhaps something else that I have over looked in that price range?

    And again, thanks for being there with all your enormous knowledge and humor. It's such a pleasure reading all your posts.

    BR
    Roland

  5. #35
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    Now I'm looking for something that can be all and do all, like being a crossover, EQ, phase/room correction, compressor/limiter/gain and from what ive come up with thus far, it seems I will have to take a closer look to the Behringer Ultradrive PRO DCX2496.
    I purchased a JBL DSC260A on eBay that's supposed to do all this stuff, but haven't been able to try it yet. It will take some learning, though, as the interface is less than intuitive - you have to cycle through all the menus, etc., with buttons on the front panel. I also just picked up a DBX Driverack 260, which has all the same functions plus more, including a built in RTA. I just got it last Friday, so I also haven't used it yet. It appears to be much easier to use than the DSC 260A, since it has buttons to go directly to each function and a graphical display on the front. DBX also has the Driverack PA and Driverack Studio, which are similar to the 260, but with somewhat less functionality, (the 260 can be controlled via computer hookup, and includes PEQ on the outputs, in addition to the inputs). All the DBX models give you the choice of 1/3 octave or PEQ on the inputs.

    I hope to spend some time with the DBX this week.

    John

  6. #36
    pangea
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    Do all be all

    Thanks John for jour suggestions!
    I will definitely take a closer look at those.

    The Behringer Ultradrive, seems to be very intuitive though, from what I could see in their manual.

    After having googled the dbx and JBL, I can see that they seem to be quite a bit pricier over here, the dbx costing twice as much as the Behringer, not to mention the JBL, which cost even twice as much as the dbx.

    I will probably wait and see if a used and reasonably priced dbx comes along in the near future, since it has ALL the features I want.

    BR
    Roland

  7. #37
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Re: Do all be all

    Originally posted by pangea
    ... the dbx costing twice as much as the Behringer, not to mention the JBL, which cost even twice as much as the dbx.
    I too am hearing good things on the "Driverack", but have not worked with one, nor am likely too - not my cup of tea.

    On cost - don't confuse quality with cost, in this area. Behringer has lately done some surprising reverse-engineering using top-shelf components and is maintaining very low pricing. I understand, however, they spend a great deal of time in courts on Patent chellenges...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  8. #38
    pangea
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    Re: Re: Do all be all

    Originally posted by boputnam
    I too am hearing good things on the "Driverack", but have not worked with one, nor am likely too - not my cup of tea.

    On cost - don't confuse quality with cost, in this area. Behringer has lately done some surprising reverse-engineering using top-shelf components and is maintaining very low pricing. I understand, however, they spend a great deal of time in courts on Patent chellenges...
    Hi Bo!

    What's the snag? Why isn't it your cup of tea? Does the sound deteriorate too much in your opinion?
    I thought it wouldn't be all that critical when used only at the low end. On the mids and highs, I still would use a minimalistic passive x-over, I think.

    Also, you don't think the difference is that big, between the Behringer and dbx, sound-/quality wise?

    They seem to have most functions in common apart from the dbx having RTA as well, which I really could appreciate.

    BR
    Roland

  9. #39
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    Well Dudes,

    The Gig at Apple Jacks, La Honda went off very well last night from both artistic and production values.

    The Little Wheels Band played superbly and Bo the Harp artisian/FOH engineer was just so Cool, talk about multi skilling..wow.

    The new Sprirt desk worked flawlessly, Bo set it up with four independant Foldback mixes, something not that common but having a snake with I think 24 sends and 16 returns kinda makes it happen.

    From the sound angle it was NICE, very clean, crisp and dynamic.

    The whole crowd loved it, they even danced during the sound check.

    Ian




  10. #40
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
    ...they even danced during the sound check...
    Then there was the inimitable Macka, lured by the oh-so-sultry barmaid onto the dance floor during the last set. Nice...

    Nuff said!
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  11. #41
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Then there was the inimitable Macka, lured by the oh-so-sultry barmaid onto the dance floor during the last set. Nice...

    Nuff said!

    Me thinks NOT!

    Lets hear all the sorted details....prolly liked that silly accent!


  12. #42
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Just arrived in the email...

    Me thinks they were trying to escape notoriety, but it's the cause of the Forum to track the progress of our intrepid traveller!

    This's Robh, Ian, some greenbacks and pints (fresh water glasses - or GIN!!?? - for show...) - where the heck were we? My ears were burning... Ian's got his work face on - obviously deep in study...

    Sacked...? You're busted!
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    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  13. #43
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Times Square?

    Me thinks this is a cardboard cutout of the lad - because if that was a real, live babe to his right, he'd be much busier than he poses to be... :shock:
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    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  14. #44
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    LOL

    Hey Bo you busted us. That was in the Typhon Brewery in NYC after a day long pub crawl with the Stereophile Show for halftime entertainment. Yeah that's water. Damn knob farmer!

    Rob

  15. #45
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    You'd be forgiven for thinkng I was crawling up 5th Ave by the look of those jeans, but that did no stop me or the Babs from having a rub. So what is it with these American Gals Bo?

    Rob, Just how many pints did we have by the time we got to Times Square? Must have been a dozen at least.

    By the way the Sacking was Rob's brilliant idea.

    Hey Rob should be show the boys that other shot near the fountain?

    Ian

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