Project Finally under way

[timc]

Tim,

- That's great news about your new job !

- I can see by this new job that you're in this audio thing for the long haul / so again , Congratulations !

<> Earl K

PS ; I learned from watching this years Winter Olympics that you Norwegians are a bunch of over-achievers ( total medal count per population ) . Good on you all !

Thank you Earl. Not to brag, but we also have the Nr. 1 in the world at Chess.

[Mr. Widget]

Congratulations on getting what sounds like a very cool gig!

As far as I know, TAD is no longer making any woofers smaller than 15"... at least for sale as raw components. There will be a new dealer price list April 1st and it may show new product, but over the past few years the list has gotten shorter and shorter as the prices have gone up and up.

I have used a PHL 4530. In direct comparisons to the TAD TL-1102, it was significantly punchier sounding... very dynamic and exciting. It didn't seem natural though. It felt a bit like a photograph where the color saturation was jacked up. Kind of like a post card compared to a normal photo. I think they would be great for home theater where an extra bit of excitement is cool, but I wouldn't use them in my reference audio system.


Widget

[timc]

It didn't seem natural though. It felt a bit like a photograph where the color saturation was jacked up. Kind of like a post card compared to a normal photo.

Great comparison!

Choosing a woofer is hard. Im going to look at a fairly large appartment next week. About 70 Sqm. If i go for it (get it) i might scrap the 12" and go for a 15". That will make the choice easier. TAD 1601A/B i guess.


-Tim

[timc]

Finally finished one of the 1200Fe enclosures. Glued a moderate amount of damping materiel in them, and gave them a whirl in the anechoic chamber.

Without filter, the response i got, was more or less a carbon copy of the JBL datasheet.

Very good. Both for me and JBL's credibility. A+

[Mr. Widget]

I wish I had an anechoic chamber to play in.

Lucky bastard!


Widget

[timc]

I wish I had an anechoic chamber to play in.

Lucky bastard!


Widget

Thank you sir! I do indeed fell very lucky having been given this opportunity to work amongst several highly educated acousticians.

I'll ease your pain a little. It is only true anechoic to about 100Hz or so. But there are no nasty dips/peaks, so it actually produces a fairly accurate result. But mathematically,,,only to about 100Hz (depth of the wedges)

[Harryup]

As far as I know, TAD is no longer making any woofers smaller than 15"... at least for sale as raw components. There will be a new dealer price list April 1st and it may show new product, but over the past few years the list has gotten shorter and shorter as the prices have gone up and up.

Widget

I talked to Andrew Jones at an HiFi show in Stockholm in February and he said that they were looking into the raw speakers. I asked if the 11" in Reference One was a development och 1102 and it was of course different since they needed a lower frequency response and higher SPL but they had used some ideas from the 1102. I asked if that speaker is a 1103 and he did not confirm or denied that since they had not looked into the raw speakers so much. But they are looking into starting a monitor line if they can see a demand and if they have the time to do it. They certainly have the speakers and the tradition.

/Harryup

[badman]

I found that a 1/4" thick square of f11 wool felt about 5x5, mounted on a grille in front of the 2213 gave it a lowpass characteristic of about 2k first order, where normally they play up to and a little above 5k. An additional bonus is that when you do acoustic filtering, harmonic distortion is reduced (the high frequency harmonics are filtered just like the high frequency fundamentals).

[timc]

Are you suggesting that I put a piece of wool between myself and the woofer?

Won't that screw up imaging, and midrange clarity?

[timc]

Around 4 years after it started, this project nears it conclusion. I know the thread is only 3 years, but my brain was spinning at something like this a year beforehand.

Here is the description of pair number 2 (wich unfortunately is not mine). Mine is not finished yet, but the design is done.

The speakers are up and running. The 1200Fe driven by a Crown XTi-1000. The XTi does the filtering and EQ of the woofer. The signal is sent thru the amplifier to a dBX234XL, wich cuts the LF from the horn at around 500Hz. Above this we only use the acoustic rolloff of the horn/driver. The acoustic crossover is around 900Hz. The horn is driven by a VTL ST-85. In-'room response is around +-2dB in the listening position. Disregarding the room nodes. Work is in progress for resonators to kill them.

So, was it worth the time and effort? Without a doubt. I have learned loads of stuff about designing loudspeakers, and dealing with compensation nettworks for horndrivers. It has been fun, although frustrating at times.

So, does it sound ok? Oh indeed. The 2435HPL with aquaplas (thanks Guido) and the H9800 lookalike (thanks Matsj) sound wonderful. Smooth, and detailed, but with a rythem and transient power to scare the devil. The 1200Fe is a wonderfull driver. It manages to bring forth the musicality in instruments. It is not just a sound, but it sounds like you imagine it was meant to be. I talk alot about the "vibration" you get from a bass guitars. Almost like the tone is shivering. This is something the 1200Fe manages in spades. Even more impressive is the part of the midrange reproduced by the woofer. I actually think it is sligthly better than in the S9800. A tad smoother, and start/stop of weak sounds are easier to pick up. What i miss is the enourmous impact you get from the 1500Al, so in the future, there will be subs. Maybe based on 2235 or 2245.

I will post some pictures later.

Finally I want to thank all who contributed, and helped along the way. An extra thanks goes to Greg Timbers, for designing the original, inspiring with his homebrewed "Array system", and doing all the technical stuff around the compensation network available. Also thanks to 4313B for help with aquiring the 1200Fe woofers. Matsj for providing the Horns. And also all the people who have been working with the 2435's and posting data, and thoughts. You know who you are!


-Tim

[pos]

This is great!
Do you have responses curves of the two drivers with these filters?
What slopes are you using?
Have you tried the H9800 vertically?

[timc]

This is for the horn.

Have not saved any meaningfull measurement of the woofer.

Slopes are 48db/oct linkwitz for the woofer, and 24dB/oct for the horn. Only acoustical rolloff down to 500Hz, where the active filter kicks in.

[timc]

Time for an update. Its about time really.

Today I brought the speakers home after some final adjustment in the anechoic chamber. I decided to scrap the whole passive idea, and they are now running fully active. For now i use a Behringer DCX2496 crossover wich does all the EQ and crossover function. 4th order linkwitz for the woofer and 2nd order for the horn. Acoustically this gives a 4th order slope for the horn.

A Crown XTI-1000 is driving the woofer, and I have borrowd a small miniwatt tube amplifier for the horn. Im not fully satisfied with the performance of the 2213 woofer. It's good, but there is room for improvement. Im currently looking at alternatives. Best candidate so far is RCF 15N451 or AE TD-15H. Suggestions are welcome.

-Tim