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Thread: Crown DC 300 Enters TECnology Hall Of Fame

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    My old Harman Kardon HK870, 100WPC power amp, is actually LOUDER than the Crown, which is has more RMS power!!
    How do you mean "louder"? Did you run them both up to clipping? Volume controls mean nothing...

    John

  2. #17
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnaec View Post
    Volume controls mean nothing...

  3. #18
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Evening, Fred, John, and BMWCC,

    Thanks for the shouts, Gents!

    Fred, I've printed out the proper manual, and it's great to have the info you sent along! That was a fine link, and very important, too. Much appreciated!

    John, and BMWCC, you are both right, of course, and "louder" is certainly subjective. The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp. The HK 870 caused the subs to rattle the windows much more than did the Crown, and it was just "louder", if that makes sense. Not to say that I didn't like the sound of the Crown, as it seems like it will work very well, indeed. But, I was puzzled that an amp that is rated at only 100 watts, RMS, would "sound louder", and cause more window rattling, than an amp that's rated at 55 watts per channel more power. ????? Still puzzles me, truthfully. All settings were left exactly the same when testing each amp, with no changes made at all, other than switching the preamp signal, and speaker cables between the amps. Any thoughts?

    I remember, back when I bought my very first "quality" stereo, it was from a shyster place down in San Diego, called, Dow Stereo. They sold me a "quad" system that was supposed to be 100 watts per channel. Turned out to be only 15 watts x 4 and never sounded good to me. The speakers were supposed to be a three-way system, with 12" woofers, 5" mids, and 3" tweeters. The tweeters were DOA and never worked, at all. The other components were absolute crap, and the entire system was actually put together in an employee's garage, using the worst transducers you could imagine, and then sold for solid bucks to stupid morons like myself, that thought "louder" meant "better"!!! I learned a valuable lesson after having bought that system, and ended up replacing all the drivers with MI JBL transducers. NO, the result was not a really good system, but at least all the drivers worked, and the resulting sound was head and shoulders above what I'd endured with the original system. Sorry, I took a left turn there........ Anyway, I just wanted to show that I am familar with most folks picking a "loud" system over a quality system that is not as loud. In this test, I think that the "loud" judgement was as honest as I could make it, for what it's worth. Thanks, again, Lads, and I'll talk to you later. God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc

  4. #19
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp.
    Crowns don't have "volume controls" either. The knobs are the input attenuators. The idea is to set them so that your normal listening level takes advantage of the correct level from your pre-amp based on your amp's input sensitivity. I usually set mine so that wherever I listen the pre-amp volume pot is set at mid-way or slightly higher. If I could measure output voltage I could match it to the amp's input sensitivity but this is a best-guess scenario that has even gained approval from the Crown factory guys on their forum. So if your HK is designed to work with less pre-amp voltage then it might be louder at the same pre-amp volume setting, no denying that. Both amps will reach their maximum output if the gain is high enough, and the more powerful one should actually be "louder" at full-output than a smaller one. I'm no engineer but that makes sense to me. I never run any of my (eight) Crowns with the input attenuators at full-right because even at 3/4 pre-amp volume the animals would complain and I'd soon be deaf.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp.
    All this means is that the HK amp has a higher sensitivity. Many "consumer" amps are rated for -10dBV on the inputs, while "pro" amps are usually rated for +4dBV. This means that most pro amps require a much stronger input signal to reach rated output.

    The only meaningful way to compare your two amps is to run a test into clipping, (prefereably, using test equipment ). The generalizations you're making between the two amps have no basis in objectivity - they're just subjective observations that really tell nothing about the actual capabilities of the two amps.

    John

  6. #21
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnaec View Post
    All this means is that the HK amp has a higher sensitivity. Many "consumer" amps are rated for -10dBV on the inputs, while "pro" amps are usually rated for +4dBV. This means that most pro amps require a much stronger input signal to reach rated output.

    The only meaningful way to compare your two amps is to run a test into clipping, (prefereably, using test equipment ). The generalizations you're making between the two amps have no basis in objectivity - they're just subjective observations that really tell nothing about the actual capabilities of the two amps.

    John
    Hey, John, and all,

    Thanks, very much, for all the great info, Guys! Obviously, I'm not a tech, nor an engineer. I'm just a JBL lover who formerly made his living, for almost 30 years, as a musician, and who has used Pro Sound JBL stuff for many years. I only know enough to be dangerous, and certainly would never pass myself off as an "expert" on much of anything!

    Here are a few specs from my old Harman Kardon HK870:

    100 watts per channel into 8 ohms, @ <.06% THD.
    240 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
    340 watts per channel into 2 ohms.
    Negative feedback (overall) 12db.
    High current capacity: 60 amps.
    Power bandwidth, at half-rated output, 8 ohms: 10HZ-80KHZ.
    Frequency response, at 1 watt, +0.1HZ-180KHZ
    Slew rate: 160 volts/ mSec.
    Square wave rise time: 1.8mV.
    Signal-to-noise ratio IHF-A Wtd, ref 1 watt output (new IHF): 998db.
    Input sensitivity/Inpedance Phone (MC): 1.0V/22kohms
    Damping factor: 120

    That's all I know about this old HK amp, and in truth, I don't know what half of those specs actually mean. I just know that I've always like the sound of HK amps, and that I've never had a moments problem with mine. May be those specs will help you be able to compare the HK amp with my Crown amps. If you have any thoughts and don't mine educating an old Fart who knows next to nothing about all this stuff, I'd love to hear what you have to say! Thanks, again, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc

  7. #22
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hey, Guys,

    I've been thinking about adding more to my system, once I get the time to build my new subwoofer cabinets. So far, I've been using an Audio Control electronic crossover, set at 90HZ, between my subwoofer amp, and my satellite amp. I'm wondering if I should jump into deeper waters and tri-amp my system, or even go with 4 amps, and electronically crossover the whole kit and kaboodle! What do you think? What are the advantages of using 3 or 4 amps, instead of just bi-amping? Any negatives to consider, besides cost and compexity?

    I have my old Crown VFX2A electronic crossover, and can add another one, and so tri-amp the satellite speakers, if there is something to be gained by doing so. I believe that I will actually use both of my Crown amps monaurally, so that each channel of the subwoofer will have it's own amp, and I believe that my Audio Control crossover can handle that. But, would I be doing something good by adding another VFX2A crossover, and using the pair of them in a tri-amp mode, for the satellites? Any help, suggestions, or comments, would be much appreciated! Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc

  8. #23
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Not that I know what it means, either, but the input impedance and sensitivity specs for the Crown DC300A-II, for comparison, are:
    Input Impedance: Nominally 25 K ohm.
    Input Sensitivity: 1.75 volts ±2% for 310 watts into 16 ohms.
    I don't know which model you have but these are the specs for mine. To my uneducated mind, it looks like the Crown needs 75% more input voltage to reach rated output than does the HK. I'm sure someone will correct me.

    I have two VFX-2As with the intent of doing what you suggest, someday, with which speakers I'm not sure. Sort of overkill with the 030s but I figure since I'm half-way to adding two LE175DLHs, the VFX-2As would avoid my having to buy three vintage JBL crossovers for a whole bunch of money. I'll probably need quadruple bypass surgery before I get a tri-amped JBL system in my living room!

  9. #24
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    I've been considering a Crown power amp but the new units have a rating of .5% THD and my current integrated amp as a .05% THD.

    Basically, the Crown is a dirty amp; right?

  10. #25
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbartsch
    I've been considering a Crown power amp but the new units have a rating of .5% THD and my current integrated amp as a .05% THD.

    Basically, the Crown is a dirty amp; right?
    I don't know which Crown you're referring to but remember Crowns are made for pro-audio installations. They no longer market to home hobbyists. That doesn't mean they won't work for you, just that the specs are quoted for what pro sound reinforcement expects for comparison. And many of the newer Crowns are built for cheap power for disco setups so they don't need to be too clean, just loud, and many of those use cooling fans which you probably won't want in your living room. Even the Macro-Techs and I-Techs use 0.35% for their 8,000W THD ratings. Looks like the XLS use 0.5% in their stats. But these are all extremely high-power amps not designed for home use.

    That being said, for my favorite old PS-400 Crown quotes <0.001% THD from 20Hz to 400Hz and "increasing linearly to 0.05% at 20kHz at 165 W." Keep in mind the apples-and-oranges method of power and distortion rating. IMD is rated at <0.05% from .25W to 165W. The current D-series amps still use this method of quoting THD at the same 0.05%.

  11. #26
    Senior Member jbl4ever's Avatar
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    Some Crowns


  12. #27
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Even a couple of D130s (or something close) and maybe some 075s in the picture for the JBL fans. That's a bunch of PSA-2s, for sure! Most likely the D-series and PS-series are still working though!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunchy View Post
    Funky!

    One of these early run DC300s just sold on eeebay for $400. It was 99% pristine, and appeared as new. Love the bold styling!!! !!!

  14. #29
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Nos Dc300a

    This stuff fascinates me! What was someone doing with this in a box all these years? Lost inventory? Purchased on a whim and stashed away, forgotten? OCD collector, like the rest of us?

    Anyway, here it is, and I have no idea what it's worth. No matter; it's cool!
    http://ebayitem.com/370230132403
    Oh yeah, the buy-it-now price is $989.
    IMPORTANT NOTE: I HAVE RECENTLY OPENED UP A SEALED WAREHOUSE THAT IS STUFFED WITH OVER 20,000! PIECES OF BRAND NEW, AMERICAN MADE PROFESSIONAL TECHNICAL EQUIPMENT, ALL IN ORIGINAL FACTORY PACKAGING, A VERY RARE, INCREDIBLE FIND, A TIME CAPSULE OF TECHNOLOGY FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS!

    THIS AMAZING COLLECTION OF THE FINEST QUALITY NEW ITEMS INCLUDES ALL TYPES OF: ELECTRONIC TEST AND MEASUREMENT EQUIPMENT , BROADCAST VIDEO / AUDIO EQUIPMENT, INDUSTRIAL / COMMERCIAL EQUIPMENT / PARTS, POWER AND HAND TOOLS, ETC!

    YOUR PURCHASE IS FOR A VERY RARE FIND! BRAND NEW (FROM THE 1980'S), GUARANTEED NOT DOA, CROWN BRAND, MODEL DC-300A, STEREO AUDIO POWER AMPLIFIER COMPLETE WITH ALL ACCESSORIES AND OWNERS MANUAL, ALL IN ORIGINAL FACTORY PACKAGING (SEE ALL OF THE PHOTOS FOR DETAILS).

    IMPORTANT NOTE #2: TO PREVENT LEAVING FINGERPRINTS OR OTHER CONTAMINATES ON THE PRISTINE ORIGINAL FINISHES, WE ALWAYS WEAR PROTECTIVE GLOVES WHEN HANDLING THESE NEW PRODUCTS!

    IMPORTANT NOTE #3: THIS NEW POWER AMPLIFIER WAS SLOWLY POWERED-UP WITH A VARIAC (AS SHOWN IN THE PHOTO) TO PROTECT THE CIRCUITRY AND THE ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS PRIOR TO TESTING OF THE UNIT!

    THE CROWN DC-300A STEREO AUDIO POWER AMP IS CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THE FINEST EVER MADE!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  15. #30
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    I thought this announcement on Crown's web site appropriate to post here on Crown's 60th Anniversary. Thanks Gerald!

    http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr157.htm
    http://www.mixfoundation.org/hof/techof.html#crown

    The original service manual for the DC 300 is entitled "300 Watts and a Cloud of Smoke"



    the Crown has great company in the TECnology Hall of Fame

    http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-...s10M_speakers/

    1977 Yamaha NS-10M Speakers

    From Yamaha’s consumer hi-fi group, 1977’s most inauspicious audio debut was surely the NS-10M. At the time, no one in pro audio used them, and they didn’t rise to prominence for another five years, when they began replacing Auratones as the most common studio reference speaker. Claiming that it smoothed the monitors’ high frequency response, engineers began hanging tissues over the tweeters, and NS-10Ms so adorned were a common sight during the 1980s

    I have read more than once that the Yammys were used mainly because they represented "everymans speaker" - like a lowest common denominator deal- not because they were significantly good.
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

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