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Thread: Usher D2 "clone" Project gone OPEN BAFFLE!!!

  1. #1
    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    Exclamation Usher D2 "clone" Project gone OPEN BAFFLE!!!

    I was originally going to build an Usher Audio D2 clone, and build these OB's just as a temp thing to get the Usher 15HM drivers run in and out of my cramped bedroom. However, now that I've been listening to them since last night and all day today, I think I'm going to can the D2 clone idea and keep these open baffles. They sound that good!

    I ran the idea across several people on various forums and they swore that running horns with open baffles would never work out. Some even said that the Altec 511B horns would not work in an MTM design. Well I have news for them.

    Last night once I got them up and running playing fullrange and spent about 10 minutes doing some quick tweaking, a few things were quite apparent with these beasts (more of which I noticed today)...

    1) For one, the imaging, soundstaging and depth are something in the order of very, very good, properly placed bookshelf speakers. The imaging in darn near pin-point, the soundstage is well beyond the walls of the room and the depth gets right up in your face and as far back as several meters behind the speakers and back wall. VERY 3-dimentional.

    2) The uniformity of sound emitted from these speakers while standing, sitting, squatting and walking around the room is amazing. The tonallity doesn't change! As long as I'm as far back as the listening position (about 9' away) or further and I move all around, walking from the left wall to the right wall, sitting or standing, the sound remains the same. These speakers have a huge sweet spot! This also includes about 95% of imaging, soundstaging and depth and any of those locations.

    3) Super sensitivity OB's! Theoretically, these OB's should be 98dB efficient at 1W/1M (wired parallel into 4 ohms each channel) or maybe slightly less due to being in OB's. I thought for sure the gains would remain the same between these and the Klipsch Cornwalls they replaced (also 98dB @ 1W/1M). I can honestly say that they are NOT. These things have to be somewhere around 101+dB, if not more. They are considerably more sensitive than the Cornwalls.

    4) Power and dynamics are in abundance! From the quietest passages to the loudest, these things put it out without issue. There's just a huge wall of sound that slams into the room. Playing Telarc's "Trumpet Spectacular" with the large orchestra seems very real. The most real I have ever witnessed in my room. I felt like I was back in orchestra myself when I used to play 1st chair bass. BTW, the most power I saw going into these monsters was just under 4 watts with full pipe organ, orchestra and drum roll on the last chord of the last track. I would have to say it was right around the actual volume level as actually being there durring the live performance (not that I was there or anything, but I know how loud a recital can get).

    5) A full, wide-range sound. These Usher 15HM drivers are not meant for OB use as their Qts is 0.30. Without any EQ at all, they roll off pretty sharp after 50Hz or so, but with a little EQ added into the mix, I'm getting strong, usable output down into the low to mid-30Hz range easily, maybe even touching into the high 20's. Bass is very clean, very tight and very "real" with these drivers in OB's. I'm loving this!

    6) Lastly, if anyone on here knew anything about my dipole subwoofer project several years ago, I kept remarking on how difficult it was to see any kind of cone movement from the drivers with moderate to loud volumes with low frequencies. The same is true with these new OB's! Like I said, they're playing fullrange right now, so they're getting the entire range of sound and handling it all with great ease. The reason I think they move so little is because they use such little power, which is obvioulsy nothing to them. The simple explination is that they are hardly doing any work to produce lots of loud, clean sound into the room.

    The absolute max wattage I've seen go into them now has been almost 10 watts, and that was near the point of being insanely too loud. The bass output at that kind of volume is just unreal for these OB's. You can definately feel and hear it, and you can also hear all the detail in that bass. That's the magical beauty of OB (dipole) bass!!!

    Anyway, enough flapping of the gums. I know you all want to see some pictures, so here they are! Enjoy and please feel free to ask many questions.









    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

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    I like your speakers. Congrats.

    My big project that was going to be a complex sealed box jobbie now looks like it'll be OB. I've been a die hard hornie and HE driver guy for a while and the OB's may finally remove the issues I've had with both.

    If you haven't seen these threads on diyaudio.com , you may enjoy. The first is very long but there is a ton of great info in there. The second is far more pragmatic.
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=1
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=1

    This article by Martin King really started me thinking along the OB lines.
    http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html

    So, I expect mine to look similar to yours, but with 4 Eminence A15 or B15 drivers/side. Still experimenting with the mids and up but may go with the GPA coaxes. Hell of a lot easier to build than a complex sealed multiway enclosure.

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    OB

    That's something I have not tried. Those are big boys!! Glad you are enjoying them. So what are you planing on for the surrounds?? Scalled down version??

    Rob

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    Neato!

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    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Congratulation for your tall OB! I would like to listen to it.

    I do second the good sound experience of an OB design. It is amazing how clear and resonance free deep tones will be reproduced, even clearer than with a good bass horn.

    For the very low notes there must be an increase of cone excursion due to the acoustic short cut (?, open baffel). So a speaker with a large excursion is helpful for deep and high sound pressures.

    May be two A1501AL from the EVEREST II with 25,4 mm peak-to-peak linear excursion capability? ...
    ___________
    Peter

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    Altec 511 MTM

    Would you mind sharing crossover information?

    Cyclotronguy

  7. #7
    JBL 4645
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    ChopsMX5

    Interesting project you’ve got running there. I’ve stumbled onto this before over on the Linkwitz lab site last year.

    http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_ec.htm

    You need a matching one now for the centre channel and place the screen in front of the loudspeaker array just like the cinema.

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    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    A9X, thanks! I've been to all 3 of those links before. That first one is a huge thread... 52 pages! It'll take me a while to read through that one. LOL

    I hope you share your OB project with us when you get it done.



    Robh3606, you should try some OB's sometime. You just might like them. I'm not going to be doing anything to the surrounds. What I have for my sides and rears do just fine, and they're small. Now if I had a larger room, then I would probably do something similar to these for them.



    Hoerninger, I've got a decent DIY sub to take care of those very low notes. However, even when I do have the sub on, I've been letting the OB's still play fullrange. They blend in seamlessly this way and also add to the impact and punchiness of the sub (which the sub is crossed over at 50Hz). This works out very well.



    Cyclotronguy, I'm still using my Rane AC22B active crossover as I was with the old loudspeakers. I have the OB's woofers crossed over at 800Hz to the horns. After doing some more level corrections and woofer delay tweaks tonight after work, I've got these things really singing at the 800Hz x-over point. The midrange quality coming from these Usher 15HM drivers are simply stunning and life-like.



    JBL 4645, it would be nice to put the L/C/R channels behind the screen but I just don't have the space to do that in my room.
    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

  9. #9
    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    Hmm... I thought for sure this thread would have sparked a bit more interest on this forum, but apparently not. Oh well.
    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

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    I asked G.T. if there were any plans to make a JBL version and he said no but that he personally thought it could be pretty cool. They would have to design the transducers specifically for the task.

    Who knows, maybe Zilch can throw a pair together using his waveguides and a pair of 2212's or something.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChopsMX5 View Post
    ... a bit more interest on this forum, but apparently not. Oh well.
    Charles,

    you need not to be dissapointed, 358 views to 9 replies within a fortnight in this forum is really not bad. And your pictures are highly appreciated for sure.

    Another thought about OB:
    One of its advantages is the "eight" polar pattern how it can easyly be obtained with electrostatic speakers. In this way room resonances are far less activated. I wonder how this can be achieved with horn drivers: One to the front and one to the back close together with invers polarity ...
    Does this mean
    (GT ... They (JBL) would have to design the transducers specifically for the task.
    ?
    ___________
    Peter

  12. #12
    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    I asked G.T. if there were any plans to make a JBL version and he said no but that he personally thought it could be pretty cool. They would have to design the transducers specifically for the task.

    Who knows, maybe Zilch can throw a pair together using his waveguides and a pair of 2212's or something.
    As long as JBL made the drivers with a high-ish Qts, low Fs, kept them efficient and allowed them to extend up to 2kHz or so, they would have a killer driver on their hands for OB, and I'm sure people would be buying them up like crazy.

    I can't remember right off hand with the efficiency that OB's have due to air velocity or something, but my drivers are 95dB each, wired in parallel to 4 ohms, that's now up to at least 101dB. When you add that into the benefits of the OB design, I could be up somewhere like 104dB or so, maybe more. All I know is that these things are very, very efficient, can be cranked to extremely loud levels, and the drivers just barely move.

    The most power I have dumped into these things without nearly blowing myself out of the room, or blowing my own ears has been a peak of 12 watts!
    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

  13. #13
    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoerninger View Post
    Charles,

    you need not to be dissapointed, 358 views to 9 replies within a fortnight in this forum is really not bad. And your pictures are highly appreciated for sure.

    Another thought about OB:
    One of its advantages is the "eight" polar pattern how it can easyly be obtained with electrostatic speakers. In this way room resonances are far less activated. I wonder how this can be achieved with horn drivers: One to the front and one to the back close together with invers polarity ...
    Does this mean ?
    ___________
    Peter

    Yeah, I don't know how you would get a polar pattern out of a horn. But from listeing to these speakers for the last few weeks, I'm not sure you have to.

    I've now got the xover point at 1kHz and these speakers sound excellent. The midrange on down to the lowest limits is very open, natural, clean and 3D! The Altec horns have also improved since they are not playing down to 500-600Hz like I used to have them. So in turn, they are more open and 3D as well. The horns and OBs blend in perfectly together. Maybe it has something to do with them being in the MTM configuration also. I don't know but I love it!
    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

  14. #14
    Senior Member ChopsMX5's Avatar
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    This just in... I used SynRTA software today on my dipoles to see how they measure up.

    A little about the setup:

    This is both channels driven, SPL was about +20dB above the noise floor (about 85dB) at my listening position, the mic used is the Behringer ECM8000 mounted to a sturdy mic stand and boom, the mic preamp is a dbx 760X, and the soundcard is a SoundBlaster Audigy2 Platinum. Pink Noise was provided by my Behringer DEQ1024.

    There's a peak around 900Hz that I can't seem to do anything with. And there's a dip around 15kHz that doesn't want to go away either.

    I'll run a couple more tests in a little while of just the woofers by themselves, then the horns by themselves and see what happens then.

    BTW, the EQ was left were I set it by ear. Not too far off I guess.

    Red is EQ'ed
    Green is not EQ'ed

    Charles
    http://charlest.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p1014411387.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChopsMX5 View Post
    There's a peak around 900Hz that I can't seem to do anything with.
    Pad the HF so it is the same sensitivity as the LF (use an L-Pad). Remove any other crossover elements. Remove any EQ. Parallel the leads to both the HF and LF (you're hooking all the drivers up in parallel to one amp with an L-Pad on the HF to get its sensitivity down to the LF). Run your curve with the mic a meter away from the horn. Use very little power so you don't blow up your HF. Post the resulting picture.

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