Maybe not to you, in your particular environment...Originally Posted by Zilch
One hundred of you could fail and blog about it and it wouldn't change my mind about the benefits of bi-amping, tri-amping, etc.Several members have commented on little success in the attempt to biamp the 4430 and 4435.
Not to mention having an area conducive to enjoying the system in the first place.
That is a fact missed by 99% out there.
[sarcasm]That is a fact missed by 99% out there.
Damn - I don't have the obligatory $4k+ for the Bryston10B active crossover plus a pair of Nelson's Past amps,
nor the space for a proper listening environment where I can truly appreciate this gear.
I better sell my big JBLs to the Japanese (they got the REAL money), then go buy some Blowse or Capehart or something -
I guess the attitude here is thats all most of us are good for!
Forgive me for misunderstanding my station in life - we are not worthy!
[/sarcasm]
2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460
What are you talking about Heather? See post #11 above... you're already bi-amping...
Heather,
I think you missed the subtle differences here in the application of biamping.
Biamping at 320 hz via a woofer and a mid cone that bypasses the passive crossover used at that frequency is a different kettle of fish to biamping at 1000 hz. What you hear is one hellava difference in bass and midrange clarity. The power split at 320 hz is also benefically to biamping.
Now biamping the 4435 will tighten up the bass a tad but primarily offers protection of the Compression driver in the event the system is being driven hard and the amp clips when used for what they were built for..monitoring.
The signal still runs via a series capacitor and passive Eq shaping elements for the bi radial horn...nothing to loose sleep over if they are hi quality parts. If you plan to biamp do yourself a favour and have Giskard build a charge - coupled network. The difference is quite audible.
A lot of amps tend to dislike a 4 ohm load and will sound less than happy depending on the amp. This is most noticably in the upper midrange if your appreciate hi fidelity rather than a loud noise (ie PA systems are usually biamped by the way). Recording studios playback at horribly loud levels incidentally.
The system may therefore sound cleaner biamping. If you have a very good power amp like Guido's and don't need 120 db in your home biamping is probably not going to help. As a practial matter I have used the Aleph 2 in a 3 way system using the 4435 biradial. It worked wonderfully.
I referred to the better quality active crossover because the old vintage models we see floating around with dated i.cs do intrude on the purity of the audio signal even though there are practical acoustic benefits for the drivers. To wring the last drop of the performance of those compression drivers it important to understand the first watt of power is the most important up at those frequencies where the driver operates. To the initiated this means using a hi quality amplifier that has very good performance at low power levels. It is practical to consider using a class A amplifier in this situation.
As you may now appreciate this has little to do with the sort of attitude you are referring to. Ignorance is bliss for some but we learn to live with that around here.
I mean everyone including Giskard had an opinion or should I say a belief on the fog horn used in the 43XX 4 ways. Now no one can say a really bad thing about them in the likes of the 4344/4345 because a number of people have made the effort to re visit these systems. But you need hands on experience in setting all these system up and an understanding of what's important to get it happening. We've had similar discussions about the use of graphic equalizers.
Its not a topic for an academic arm chair discussion. You learn by doing.
Ian
I have played around for many hours with my 4430's and 4435'sand have run both a BSS FDS360 24dB/ Linkwitz Riely cossover and a 5235 with correct network for 4430/4435, IMHO they do need to be used with the right crossovers with the righ slopes, biggest problem I had was balancing the LF and HF drives without a RTA but once right I think they are chalk and cheese between active and passive.
Now I want a pair of 4343's or 4345's to play with.
4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.
No, I think I understand quite well - as I've read in the upgrade threads (and heard), there's a lot of difference in crossing at 290 or 320 hz vs crossing over more within the human vocal range of 900/1200 Hz. I do get that.
I've read Greg Timber's posts here and know there are many advantages to using cleaner, more modern CC networks as well, and when I choose to put more money into speakers again, no doubt I will pursue that strategy, but at the moment I have other expenses and investments pending. It seems sometimes life intrudes ...
Surprisingly, the 4341s remain quite enjoyable, even if not yet at their ultimate capabilities ... and a definate upgrade from the DIY 4ways that were here before. I am quite capable of enjoying the music at this level, knowing that more improvements and refinements await me.
2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460
Hello HeatherHigh bucks rule.
Huh??? What does the benefits of biamping have to do with dollars??? Yeah I know that's a really stupid question with it's own obvious answer but really.
You don't need big bucks to biamp and you don't need $4000 amps to hear the difference. The key is to simply do it right or at least as best you can within your means.
With my gear some high end guy would simply laugh at me. I mean 20 years old Crowns some ancient Urei EQ's and a couple of JBL PA crossovers. My god just running Crowns and JBL together could give some guy a heart attack at the thought.
I don't think anyones saying spend big to get big. It's more like spend wisely and do your homework. I have some money tied up but no where near what " High End" gear would cost. I could sell the whole system off and not be able to get a "decent" set of speakers.
The larger systems are not inexpensive as you know and decent gear isn't cheap either. The larger systems can sound damn nice but that doesn't mean you can't fire up the old Pioneer reciever with L26's and get just as much fun out of it.
It's not the money or the speakers it's the mindset that matters
Rob
I agree you can do it all with not too much outlay if you go the diy route.
I did with my diy active crossover and amps.
Getting back to the point which was to an extent off topic biamping the 4430/35 same / better issue I would address upgrading the stock crossovers before getting too concerned about biamping. My pm box suggests most members see that as a logical upgrade path. I will respond to those messages over the weekend.
The appreciation is not in what other people write which happens a lot around here but doing it yourself.
Ian
Last edited by Ian Mackenzie; 10-11-2007 at 03:01 AM. Reason: updated response based on feedback
You've got a piece of my deleted post, and took that out of context ... I'm hardly an advocate of high dollar systems.
I thought I had talked plenty here about the mini rack I built of JBL 6230 amp, JBL 6260 amp and JBL M552 active crossover (total price, under $500 even with XLR cables and adapters) as a low cost way to bi-Amp. Didn't think I'd have to remind anyone here that I am a firm believer in cost-effective DIY.
I guess its hard to get sarcasm unless ...?
And Ian - I'm a web developer, I work on the internet - checking mail before bed, and signing on for work in the morning is normal for me - I get paid for it. Your excuse?
Hello Heather
Huh??? What does the benefits of biamping have to do with dollars???
It's not the money or the speakers it's the mindset that matters
Rob
2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460
Yeah well at this point we're all wondering .
It may be better in future not to buy your way into a thread where you don't have a point to prove.
Ian
Hey Peter,
It may pay to write a pm to John Nebel on the subject and get his impressions. I think John has tried and heard it all.
In this pic John has his 4343's and 4435's both running biamped
Ian
I think Ian was referring to the fact that a system with a low crossover frequency (eg 434x) benefits more from biamping than one with a higher crossover frequency (eg 443x). I guess this is because passive components needed for such low frequency crossovers are more harmful to the signal ?...
Essentially the first crossover point is when bi-amping confers the most sonic and distortion advantage and that is more true when the point is low enough that the action eliminates ( or greatly reduces ) the number of large caps and inductors needed. This is ( again ) basic physics and has been extensively written here by many.
Both arguments I have seen posted here have merit:
>The LF to LM transition on the 434X 4 ways make a huge positive effect when biamped but the speaker placement, ambient noise floor and room reflections have MANY MANY orders of magnitude more bearing on the total outcome than the small differences in amplifier performance / specs when decent amps and wiring methods are used.
>Biamping the higher crossover'ed 4430/35 does have an advantage for distortion but does require careful balancing and unless running a system with 12+ horns ( as in the many club installs we did ) is of marginal cost-effectiveness. Remember that these *are* only one inch drivers and you cannot reduce the inherent distortion they have over the newer designs and larger diaphram models. Of the 30+ systems we installed, fewer than 1/2 doz used 1" horns as the full HF.
The difference between .01 and .001 distortion in a properly designed system is about the same as a mouse farting in the hall closet while listening to a volume that would break your lease / marriage. Too many are influenced by hype, obscure "specs" and thatsthewayweallwaysdidit syndrome.
eek.
It's all about enjoyment of your system and the fact that if you can pull off a 500 dollar biamped rig of those quality components, that is a lot more skill than tossing wads of hundreds at a "unobtanium + rarium" importer..
:cheers
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