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Thread: Veneer help please

  1. #1
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Veneer help please

    As you may have noticed I am reaching the finishing stage of my project.
    I freely admit I am not that experienced at veneering and worse I aim to use quarter cut oak with rays ( see pic they are the pale marks ) which tends to be chippy or brittle. Of course I will do a test but any input would be most welcome.
    My main concern is the splitty nature of dry veneer but tell me about the adhesive versus moistening the veneer.:dont-know
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Food for thought

    Riessen once gave some instructive tipps for veneering, the best I have ever found in this forum:
    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...4&postcount=10
    ____________
    Peter

  3. #3
    MJC
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    Using a good quality contact cement is the first step, imho, water base contact is best. Use a small foam roller to apply.
    Before I stained the veneer, I gave it a like sanding, and NOT with real fine sandpaper, as I was using a Black Stain Concentrate, and wanted to get a deep black, not a Walnut color. I just keep soaking the veneer until I got the shade of black I wanted, let it sit per instructions and then wiped it off. Let it cure for a day and then apply the finish.

  4. #4
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Thanks guys

    Still looking for tips on getting round that curve ( L 300 style rounded edges )

  5. #5
    MJC
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    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    Still looking for tips on getting round that curve ( L 300 style rounded edges )
    Well, if you are running the grain of the wood length-wise with the corner, then there should be no problem. It will easily bend around the corner.
    If not then you might have to lightly score the back of the veneer with a sharp knife.

  6. #6
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    I do alot of pieces with solid Quartersawn White Oak lumber.

    My best advice or comment will be to wish you luck!

    As you already know, the grain is reversed and all the edges are as brittle as can be. The medulary rays are similar to flakes and almost seem to be applied rather then in the wood.

    With all oaks, moisture is the enemy so please avoid that idea.

    You must trim and sand in one direction only so as not to lift the rays. It is very common when working with full thickness boards to end up with tear outs at the rays so you have to be willing to live with a few imperfections that are almost inevitable. The character of the grain pattern is very forgiving of these imperfections and most are almost unnoticable when stained and finished.

    If you have a full thickness board of QS white oak, look at the end grain and you will see the annual growth rings of the wood are going in the same direction as the edge thickness of each board or in other words from face to face. This leaves the edges very prone to tear outs.

    On a more positive note, this also allows the expansion and contraction of this wood to be most prominent in thickness rather then the standard cut wood which expands and contracts in width.

    It is very tough to work with yet is a very stable and gorgeous wood.

    Once it is adheared to the substrate it should remain quite stable and it looks it absolute best when fumed with ammonia which darkens the pourous wood between the rays but does not affect the rays themselves.

    I have a love-hate relationship with QS White Oak because it looks and performs great yet it is so finicky to work with. All of my home furnishings are QSWO and made by me.





    Enjoy!

    Gary

  7. #7
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    Buy some backed veneer. It will save you the headaches you have coming. Not a good veneer to learn on.

    Gary

  8. #8
    Senior Member saeman's Avatar
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    ve near ing

    Not to be argumenatitive but the best way (in my humble/bumble opinion) that I have found to apply veneer to an already assembled cabinet is to use wood glue. I have used contact many many times and the results from using wood glue over contact cement have always proven beneficial.

    How well a given adhesive bonds the veneer to the substrate is only one issue of concern. Certainly there are many contact cement adhesives that will do the job - the stinky brain cell killing type used by counter top producers that's available in any hardware store all the way to the two part spray types used in industry. I have used veneer with self adhesive backing (contact cement by nature) and also used roller applied and spray applied contact cements. All have proven adequate to provide a good bond.

    The issue is with any exposed veneer edge. On ALL JBL monitors that I have fiddled with there are always exposed veneer edges - i.e. where the top overlaps the sides or where the front edge meets the face trim. These are the areas where problems will come up. One major problem with contact cement is that it's rubbery (is that a word) and will not sand nor will it take any type of stain. Every time I have used contact cement, exposed edges have been an issue. I have also had lifting or delaminating of the veneer (over time) at the exposed edges. Keep these issues in mind if you choose to use contact cement.

    Wood glue - I've been busy these past several months building cabinets and I'm going thru a gallon of glue a week - and most of it is being used to lay down veneer. I use almost strictly Titebond II and I buy 2-3 gallons at a time. Here's my routine and you can decide if it fits your needs.

    I apply 3 coats to the substrate and 2 coats to the back of PAPERBACK 10 mil veneer. The glue is applied using a medium nap 4" wide paint roller. In the winter I will sometimes lightly thin the glue with water. In the summer it's not necessary. I use 3 coats on the substrate because the first coat will usually dissappear into the wood but not so on the veneer. After the first cabinet coat you will find that it has raised the grain and left you with a rough surface after it dries - like 80 grit sand paper. After the first coat dries I will always drag a sanding block with 100 grit paper over the surface to smooth it out.

    Apply the successive glue coats one after another as soon as the previous one has dried. When the last coat is dry you will be ready to apply the veneer. I ALWAYS try to lay the veneer after the glue is dry to the touch but not hardened. The best results I have achieved is when the glue is still soft enough that you can dig into it using a fingernail. You can actually let it sit for up to two days and still lay the veneer down.

    Most wood glues are poly based even though you can thin them with water. Most manufacturers say that it takes the glue near two days to fully harden and cure.

    With the glue dry I will lay the veneer in place and use my wife's long abandoned clothes iron to iron it down. I will usually work about two square feet at a time and here's my routine - I use full heat on the iron but always place a layer of cloth over the veneer as a heat barrier to protect the veneer and to prevent overheating. The goal is to heat and reactivate the glue that you applied to the two surfaces. If you get it too hot you will MELT the glue and then you're kinda screwed. The melted glue will expand and create a bubble under the veneer. When this happes you'll be forced to slit open the bubble, let the glue dry again and then attempt to roll down the affected spot. This is a major hassle and all of the efforts will usually be visible after sanding and oiling.

    Don't let this scare you off - just keep that cloth layer over the veneer and don't ponder too long in one place with the iron.

    I use a 4" veneer roller for my efforts. Iron over the 2 foot area until the veneer it totally laid down. You will hear crackling under the veneer until it it bonded so you will know when the crackling is gone that it is bonded. After that start over the area again and follow the iron, in the direction of the grain, with your veneer roller (iron in your left hand, roller in the right). After you roll the entire area briefly heat your 2 foot area again, remove the cloth and roll cross-grain. While doing this you want to carefully listen for any crackling under the roller. If you hear any, reheat and roll until it's gone.

    This may sound like a lot of work but it's not once you get the hang of it. It's as fool proof a method as I have found - unless you can find a vacuum bag big enough to fit a whole cabinet.

    Even using contact cement to get the best results you need to heat and roll as I have described.

    Veneer - I ALWAYS use 10 mil paperback. Remember those exposed edges - with paperback the veneer is as thin as you can buy and the edge is less obvious and easier to hide. You have to look hard to see my edges after the cabinet is finished. 22 mill bubble free is good veneer but it's thick and leaves an obvious exposed edge. Pheonolic backed veneer is even worse as it's more like formica and will leave an edge that will not stain period.....

    Veneer trimming - I usually rough cut the piece to leave 1/8" to 1/4" overhang on each edge. After application I use a laminate trimmer with a flush cut bit to trim the excess. Before cutting cross-grain use a sharp utility knife to scribe the veneer first. This will prevent chipping at the bit cuts cross-grain. Some guys recommend using small block planes and similar veneer trimmers. If you go this way remember that the veneer is wood and wood has a grain pattern and when you least expect it you will splinter your edge, even if you just installed a new blade. A decent laminate trimmer (like those offered for formica trimming) will cost you about $100. Buy the one that spin the fastest.

    After you have trimmed the excess veneer go around the entire surface - fingers laying on top and your thumb trying to lift the veneer edge - like the action of thumbing thru a book or a deck of cards. You'be be listening for spots around the edge where the veneer is not properly bonded. You hear the difference - like a loose page - if there are any problem spots mark them and move along. Afterwards you will reheat and roll the area again.

    How much glue - why all of the coats? Most veneer manufacturers recommend a glue later between the two surfaces that is 6 mil thick. Not enough and there's nothing to heat and fuse together - too much and you can have a lumpy surface. My receipt of 3 and 2 has been proven on more 4x8 sheets of veneer that I can remember.

    Over years and years of laying veneer I have never (cross my fingers) had any delamination - edges or elsewhere. When I was out of high school, for a while I worked in a furniture factory and they veneered their own base wood products and guess what they used - heated glue applied to the surfaces before they fed them into a roller press which roll bonded the veneer in place with HEAT. I remember standing by the machine and it was like standing in between two big pizza ovens. I wish I knew their glue formula. This process was common place back then and I'm quite sure by looking below the surface on JBL's cabinets that they were done the same way. Today in industry I have found that contact cements are more common - but those folks have all kinds of neat machinery at their disposal.

    Enough said as this point (maybe too much) but remember my initial concerns - hiding exposed edges and edge delamination.

    This is just my method and one that I've proven to work for the type of work that I do.

    P.S. 10 mil veneer will wrap nicely around curver surfaces but it's a bit more time consuming applying even heat and roller pressure to these surfaces. If you scribe the veneer (remember it's only got a 10 mil paper backing) the veneer will likely leave a ridge or crease at these scribe points.

    Rick

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejfud View Post
    Buy some backed veneer. It will save you the headaches you have coming. Not a good veneer to learn on.

    Gary
    Agreed! Rift or quarter sawn veneers are very hard to learn with and Burls are even worse. When ever you have grain patterns going in six different directions at the edges you are presented with major challenges.

    Wood glue such as Tite bond works great on some veneers but not on all.
    I used it with unbacked Mahogany and Walnut burl and although the veneer is stuck to stay, the glue bleeds through the pourous portions of the grain and is nearly impossible to stain once the glue dries in these areas.
    I have also used the 3M sticky backed veneers with varrying degrees of success and failure. It is no fun and quite expensive to be this close to the final touches and have to say "I did it right because I did it twice".
    Practice and experimentation with all of the above techniques will show you the way and I always buy a little extra and play around a bit with cut off scraps on the substrate before I tackle the cabinets.

    Gary

  10. #10
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Thanks guys

    Is Titebond a PVA wood glue ?
    Does anyone have any experience with Pearl glue. It comes as little beads of orange brown colour which you then dissolve im water and heat till it is viscous.

  11. #11
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Veneer

    This is the stuff and yes it bends with ease. Just got to make it stick.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any experience with Pearl glue. It comes as little beads of orange brown colour which you then dissolve im water and heat till it is viscous.
    Hide glue? only experience is in disassembly... and in reading about use for period
    restoration and musical instrument assembly. :dont-know Nice project .

  13. #13
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Ta Much Grumps

    I did try it once. It seems high on technique but pretty much permanent when done.
    I tried out my first round over with that large cutter. turned out to be a doddle two passes and that is it. Mind you it is brand spanking I bet its an angry bastard when it is getting dull.
    The main point is that that oak rolls over the curve without any fuss at all.
    Phew.
    I.m going to try a tester with the same profile using pva and if Rich is a cool dude ( which he is ) i,ll try the iron on film.
    Any more advice is very welcome but thanks all so far.

  14. #14
    MJC
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    here is a pic of an end edge seam that was applied with water base contact. Vertical seam on sub.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    looks perfect


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