How many of you run your systems flat?

[soundboy]

Just curious how many of you with JBL systems, even monitors, run your systems without any eq on the low end.
I have always designed my cabs with flat tuning...example: The 4430 tunes the 2235H in 5 cu ft to 34 hz. My tuning for the same driver in the past was 28 hz.
My systems for both live and at home, are very flat down through the mid bass...which makes most CD's sound lean and, well, needing a slight hump in the 80-125hz region. Especially my live rig, but now I find, unless speakers are in a fairly small room that enhances this region, the bass needs some warmth and thump added.
Seems everyone I know, that is audiophile or not, enhances the low end, or uses a "Kosmos" or "BBE" type unit, etc....and generally, they sound great. Which leads me to wonder...
1. Are most studios small enough to enhance those frequencies, so they are left lean on most commercial recordings?
2. Are most monitor systems, like JBL, using a low end hump, so they sound good, but the final product, the music, is lacking?

My old 4301B's sound great in a fairly small room...but they have a bass peak around 60-80hz, and the room further enhances it.
My Dynaudio/2245H sub system is flat below 200 hz, and mostly sounds lean without a couple db of boost below 160hz...but it is in a fairly large L shaped space.

Are you all running things flat, or making up for all those recordings with an added bass EQ....or higher Q on your woofer tuning?

I have always hated loudness contours, but the low end contour on my modified 565 Adcom preamp sounds great on most of my CD's. It only adds a couple db at moderate levels in the midbass region. Should I have "non purist guilt" for using it on bright material?

Who else boosts their low end a bit, and if not, what is your woofer Q, and room response below 200hz?

If your system is ruler flat...are you happy?

Thanks.

[boputnam]

Just curious how many of you with JBL systems, even monitors, run your systems without any eq on the low end.
I have always designed my cabs with flat tuning...example: The 4430 tunes the 2235H in 5 cu ft to 34 hz. My tuning for the same driver in the past was 28 hz.
My systems for both live and at home, are very flat down through the mid bass...which makes most CD's sound lean and, well, needing a slight hump in the 80-125hz region. Especially my live rig, but now I find, unless speakers are in a fairly small room that enhances this region, the bass needs some warmth and thump added.

I don't know your set-ups, but intentions of design and actual results are different, relating to room response and unintended cabinet resonance, etc.

Are your observations subjective or have you measured the response to see if indeed the FR is lacking in the 80-250Hz - that is, does the FR curve have a saddle, or low area there? If so, it would be appropriate to remedy that. Remember, these JBL Monitors are not intended to be "plug and play" - they require appropriate set-up. It could be your 80-250Hz region is flat, but overwhelmed by an imbalance with the HF, and you should be notching, there.

To your question, I do run flat, both in the home and in SR. I have modelled the response of my cabinets in both environments and notched the EQ where needed. In SR there are always room anomalies I try and tame, but not all can be. There is a slight bass coupling with the 4345's on a wooden floor, but it is not pronounced.

I have found the most uniformly accepted and pleasing response is flat. If it doesn't work for you, get a better speaker...

[BMWCCA]

I'm no where near a knowledgeable technology expert but I do trust my ears. Of course those ears are colored by growing up with an 030 system!

I use EQ in all my systems because the source material requires it, room variations benefit from it, and volume levels also influence the balance of the sound (Fletcher-Munson and all that). I always found my old McIntosh C20 loudness control effectively dealt with hearing characteristics related to sound level and never hesitated to use it. Likewise my Soundcraftsmen Pre-EQs are generally set for room variations but I can't resist tweaking them based on individual audio engineer's decisions on how they recorded the material. Some sound great flat, beyond the room EQ, and I often fantasize that those engineers used JBL monitors. Others really need help, IMHO. Back in the old days, I bought into JBL's advertising thinking that if 90% of what I listened to was recorded using JBL monitors, then my L112s should reproduce those pieces as intended. I'd kick out the EQ when playing Little Feat at high volume and imagine Lowell George tweaking the mix at similar levels with similar monitors at the creation of the recording.

But in general, no one put all those knobs on there so they'd not get used! And, in my experience, running everything flat quite often shows a lack of creativity or insight on the part of the system owner. I don't think my car and bike manufacturers optimized their suspensions, but rather spec'd them to some lowest common denominator, and they don't know how I drive! That's why Bilstein makes shocks, H&R makes springs, and why Dinan and others make so much money tweaking high-performance cars. You fiddle until it's right for you and no one can tell you you're wrong. Don't be a slave to "flat". There are seldom two rooms that are exactly alike, much less two sets of ears. As Steve Winwood loved to sing, "Do what you like!" (But then he also sang "I'm wasted and I can't find my way home", too.) Of course I'm not smart enough to design my own cabinets or crossovers like Bo, so I have to do it in the EQ. I've also not yet mastered my new Crown VFX2-A's yet, either, so what do I know? (I know that answer at least....)

[edgewound]

If your system is ruler flat...are you happy?

Thanks.

Yes.

[SEAWOLF97]

I have found the most uniformly accepted and pleasing response is flat. If it doesn't work for you, get a better speaker...

Oh boy, must be no body on the forum today to let a statement like that go....sounds like a cheesy ad slogan from a second rate marketing company.

So what if I haul home my new Everest's , and because of my room acoustics AND/OR amp AND/OR aging ears AND/OR whatever, the most pleasing response ISN'T flat ? Should I now get better speakers ? You could chase your tail forever if you follow that advise.

Maybe Bo is independently wealthy and can afford that strategy, (tho most likely not) , but most of us buy the speakers we want and then try to adjust the environ ( room OR amp OR EQ) to make the most pleasing response.

You were joking , wern't you , Bo ?

[lfh]

volume levels also influence the balance of the sound (Fletcher-Munson and all that)

I think you nailed it: Assuming that the speaker positions, listener position and general room acoustics has been sorted out for a reasonably flat FR, a level dependent bass boost is often -- at typical domestic listening levels -- called for to achieve a psycho-acoustically correct tonal balance.

When playing "loud" (say 80 dBA average) I run my system flat, but when listening "silent" (say 70 dBA or below average) I often kick in the progressive loudness on my preamp and adjust it by ear.

[Zilch]

I run flat, except with undamped titanium drivers, which get a 0.5 to 1.0 dB/octave downward tilt.

I "wing" it in the bass by ear, 'cause I don't have accurate means to measure it in the first place, and given the substantial role of room/positioning, though in doing that, I am conscious of the respective Qs of various driver/box combinations here.

No EQ though, I merely rely upon gross balancing to accomplish that.

[Hofmannhp]

Hi All,

the reason why I don't run flat is this:

[soundboy]

I don't know your set-ups, but intentions of design and actual results are different, relating to room response and unintended cabinet resonance, etc.

Are your observations subjective or have you measured the response to see if indeed the FR is lacking in the 80-250Hz - that is, does the FR curve have a saddle, or low area there? If so, it would be appropriate to remedy that. Remember, these JBL Monitors are not intended to be "plug and play" - they require appropriate set-up. It could be your 80-250Hz region is flat, but overwhelmed by an imbalance with the HF, and you should be notching, there.

To your question, I do run flat, both in the home and in SR. I have modelled the response of my cabinets in both environments and notched the EQ where needed. In SR there are always room anomalies I try and tame, but not all can be. There is a slight bass coupling with the 4345's on a wooden floor, but it is not pronounced.

Look at the response of the 4345 low end....from 300 down, is it not bumped up a couple db? Thats my point. So if you put that same woofer in a flat alignment, lower tuning, so it is flat....it may sound lean, huh?

I have found the most uniformly accepted and pleasing response is flat. If it doesn't work for you, get a better speaker...

On good recordings, I agree. I am assuming the last sentence is a misprint, bad day, or a joke. It doesnt have anything to do with the speaker, at all...it could be any system...it is just something I have noticed. And yes, I have measured my systems, third octave, and the dyna JBL sub system is within a couple db from 25 hz to 250 hz. No hump between 80-125hz...and no suckout, either

My little 4406 sound nice...they also have a hump around 100 hz....if it was in a bigger cab tuned lower, or "more accurate"....I bet they would sound like "I need to turn the bass up a couple notches....there, that sounds better...."

Just another note...if your live sound rig is flat, and you eq 80hz on the kick drum about 6db, and add about 2 to 3 db to the lower mids on a guitar cab to make the band sound killer......and if you dont do that, there is no kick, and the guitars sound a bit wiry and thin, right? Just food for thought....Not trying to start any arguments, or have a contest on whose system is flatter...or who needs "new speakers".

[Thom]

I guess the "better speaker" rule is cool. Do we have some accepted rule for determining "better"? (I know, "look it up dude"). I've been told by persons, who may or may not know, that lots of music is mixed to sound "best" on the equipment it's most likely to be played on. (doesn't mean to sound better on that equipment than on better equipment, rather to sound better on that equipment than if mixed accurately.) Capitalism and the market place being what they are it makes sense to me but I'm not in a position to Know. (connections and such.) Egos also being what they are I'd guess you probably get some of both. Even if you are a purest wouldn't it still be proper to dial in a curve from a audiologist if you were playing for yourself? People who favored tape used to refer to it as a "flat" media. Did that mean they didn't trust the RIAA curve. I've always wondered about that. I'm probably the only fool in the universe that didn't know what they meant. They're your dollars. Spend them and adjust them the way they bring you the most enjoyment. And ask your questions, because some of the information you get may help you set things up so that you enjoy them more, but if it's your room and your equipment and your music. You get to make the rules.

[boputnam]

Look at the response of the 4345 low end....from 300 down, is it not bumped up a couple db? Thats my point. So if you put that same woofer in a flat alignment, lower tuning, so it is flat....it may sound lean, huh?

Any "hump" measured in the response would be flattened by subtle EQ. I use SmaartLIVE, but there are a number of platforms.

I am assuming the last sentence is a misprint, bad day, or a joke.

Wouldn't be a "misprint", but is a joke. Don't stress, dood - I even put a smilie face after it...

It doesnt have anything to do with the speaker, at all...it could be any system...

Exactly. That is why all systems in all settings need be measured to determine how they are interacting with the room.

And yes, I have measured my systems, third octave,

OK, but is that with RTA or FFT? RTA doesn't help at all, because what is of interest is the difference between what you are sending to the cabinets (signal) and how the room deals with it (response). FFT shows the difference between the two, time-aligned, and allows for "tuning" the system to the rooms response - removing from the signal those frequencies which have resonance in the room. You may know all this - just trying to be clear.

My little 4406 sound nice...they also have a hump around 100 hz....

That is not obvious on their response curve, but I don't know the 4406.

...if (the 4406) was in a bigger cab tuned lower, or "more accurate"...

Neither statement is accurate. My 4301B's, for example, have astonishing bass response, but that is within the range of their intended application. Likewise, the 44xx series is damned accurate.

Just another note...if your live sound rig is flat and you eq 80hz on the kick drum about 6db, and add about 2 to 3 db to the lower mids on a guitar cab to make the band sound killer......and if you dont do that, there is no kick, and the guitars sound a bit wiry and thin, right?

to all points.

You are confusing system response with instrument / artist tonality. They are separate things. With my system flat, I stand a better chance of getting honest tonality out of every input. Specifically, with no "humped" low-end in the system, I don't have to add +6dB at 80Hz on the kick because since my LF is not muddy the kick comes through nice, punchy and with good tonality. More often, I take 80Hz out, add some 1kHz and futz around with the MF quite a bit until I get the sound of their particular can and skin.

For instruments through their own Fender/other amp, I often switch out the strip EQ - I want their tone. If there is a problematic resonance on-stage that their amp mics are contributing to, I will notch that slightly, but I cannot remember a time when I have boosted the EQ on an amp strip. I also have expanders on the front-end of all amp mic inputs so that between songs these mics close and so do not provide sources of feedback - with this, I am less needing to do any EQ on the amp strips.

My approach is, with a flat system my needs are to keep the mud out - removing MF and LF when it interferes with vocal intelligibility and instrument tonality. This allows for lower SPL for the audience, and greater GBF for the artists.

All this said, none of my systems lack for bass response, and I do not feel the need to tweak the "tone" knobs - case-in-point, my home system pre-amp doesn't even have any "tone" knobs"...

[boputnam]

Maybe Bo is independently wealthy and can afford that strategy, (tho most likely not) , but most of us buy the speakers we want and then try to adjust the environ ( room OR amp OR EQ) to make the most pleasing response.

You were joking , wern't you , Bo ?

Ha!!

No, and yes.

I am not "independently wealthy" - I have a day job that provides for the family, and my SR hobby comprises the equivalent of our yacht and summer home. I have no other cash outflows.

And yes, it was my frustration with the bass response of the 4312 L/R that led me to the 4313B's - a remarkable improvement, and yes, that is going to a smaller cabinet and from a 12" to a 10" woofer. The 4313B is simply better. THAT, ultimately led me to the 4345. Case closed.

However, in-parallel, I have gone through many, many iterations of my SR system over the years. And, this includes mains I own, and mains built-into clubs that I have to struggle with. I have learned I stand a better-than-even chance of looking genius starting with mains modelled for flat response (using EQ presets) and being able to tame the room response. Better cabinets do matter. JBL's SRX line is very good - I've used their SRX712M's as stage wedges for going on three-years, and they require the least EQ in fewest frequencies for flat response of any wedge I've encountered. I almost never have feedback and never any complaints on their sound. Current mains are L-Acoustics XT115's - the cabinets have almost no resonance and are a dream to work with.

[boputnam]

Hi All,

the reason why I don't run flat is this:

But maybe we need to define "run flat", HP...?

I do not promote running "straight" from the CD to the amp, if that's what you mean - Many purist audiophiles do this, but that approach assumes the speaker cabinets are performing optimally in their setting with no unexpected room resonance(s) or nulls. Running "straight" doesn't allow for accommodating to room response.

[SEAWOLF97]

, and yes, that is going to a smaller cabinet and from a 12" to a 10" woofer. The 4313B is simply better.

I think I agree.

Have both 4412 and 4410's . Basically the same speaker but with 12in (4412) and 10in (4410). It may be sacrilege , but I prefer the 4410. They are so "honest" , but still need a little LF boost.

But all I know is just personal prefs...I also prefer the 2 way L26 over the 3 way L36, and they are both 10in LF's.

[edgewound]

You are confusing system response with instrument / artist tonality. They are separate things. With my system flat, I stand a better chance of getting honest tonality out of every input....

Great points, Bo.

All this does is point to the fact that you can't polish a turd.

A live sound engineer shouldn't have to struggle or be "creative" to make a live band sound "killer". The band should already sound "killer", and it's the sound engineer's job to present it to a bigger audience.

A great speaker system just simply uncover's great or not-so-great recordings...the same goes for live performers.