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Thread: I need some advice about TT positioning.

  1. #1
    Gary L
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    I need some advice about TT positioning.

    Here is the problem. My living room floor and walls have some flex issues and if I even walk too hard the needle will skip. When I get the music cranking the pots and pans hanging on the oposite (Kitchen) side of the living room wall rattle quite alot.

    Here is a photo and my idea that I need some advice on.



    The shelf to the right of the speaker where the jug is is a very solid masonary fireplace attached to ground foundation. There is an identicle fire place directly under this one in the basement so it is solid as rock.

    My idea is to place the TT where the jug is but to make a stand on the shelf with a couple of cement blocks and a slate top to place the TT at about the top of the speaker height.
    I think this will provide a solid base for the TT that won't be affected by walking or floor/wall movement.

    Others tell me that having the TT this close to the speaker will create electronic feedback that will be even worse.

    Right now I don't have a TT on my LR system because I don't have a solid base for it.
    Will it be a waste of time and effort to set the TT on this shelf?

    Tables I can use are either a Technics SL1200MKll or a Luxman PD121 with step up and MC cartridge. I think the 1200 would be more stable but sure would love the Lux/MC set up for the living room.

    Thanks

    Gary

  2. #2
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    Hi Gary,

    No, it would not be a waste of time to try putting your turntable there. What's the cost? Probably nothing. No harm there.

    I cannot express how satisfied I was when I first put my TT on a proper wall-mounted shelf. It was made by Target. Very common. I will never put my TT on anything else. It not only eliminated vibrations from the timber in the floors- it went several steps further. The whole system came into focus. So, there's another option for you: A wall-mounted TT shelf. Does wonders.

    I wouldn't worry about what potential effect your speaker may have on the turntable. If it's a problem- move it. Worth a try.

    Also worth noting is the base your speakers are on. Definately a good thing to get your LF off the floor, but since there are vibrations reaching the pots and pans- you might want to try decoupling your speakers from the floor (verses coupling). Rubber feet, spiked feet- something to minimize the connection between speaker and floor. Might take some mud out of the LF as an extra benefit. Another cheap, low cost thing to try.

    Good luck.
    Nathan Mahler.

  3. #3
    Gary L
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    Thank you X_X.

    I am currently working up some plans to build a shelf that will stand on the fire place harth.

    Interesting comment about getting the speakers off the floor!

    I don't have an argument here but need some further input on this subject.
    My speakers are model 19 clones and I pretty much went with how Altec designed the bases. Guess I have always felt they need to be coupled to the floor for the best bass and the bases put the horn right at ear level for listening. These things weigh in at around 200 pounds each and I can't get away with spikes stuck into my hardwood floors.
    More info or some other ideas would be nice on this subject.

    I won't use the walls because they tend to be where most of the ratteling is. I won't drill into the fire place stone work to attach a shelf there but know this would likely be the best place.

    Gary

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Interesting comment about getting the speakers off the floor! I don't have an argument here but need some further input on this subject. My speakers are model 19 clones and I pretty much went with how Altec designed the bases. Guess I have always felt they need to be coupled to the floor for the best bass and the bases put the horn right at ear level for listening. These things weigh in at around 200 pounds each and I can't get away with spikes stuck into my hardwood floors.
    More info or some other ideas would be nice on this subject.

    I'm sure many here can comment further, but as I understand it, coupling can certainly increase the overall LF response. Most monitors are designed to take advantage of this since they are often mounted in a bulkhead. What if the structure is not secure? The LF will reveal every loose item in the place- as you have discovered. In your case- the overall boost your getting in LF response is being combined with distortion.

    The weight of your speakers is enough to keep them firmly anchored to the floor. All I'm suggesting is trying a bit of isolation between the speaker stand and floor. A few simple rubber feet, perhaps?

    In my experience, isolation serves to tighten up some of the LF. It can sometimes be at the slight expense of LF itself- but me personally: I'd rather hear clean bass that rolls off at 50Hz than sloppy bass that extends to ~20Hz.

    You may find your pots and pans still rattle- even after trying what I suggested. It took me three days of madness trying to track down everything that made noise when I turned up my music. Finally got it all....except the neighbors complain of things rattling in their homes.

    By the way- I love your speakers. Looks like you did an excellent job!

    Nate.
    Nathan Mahler.

  5. #5
    Gary L
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    Thanks Nate. Actually, I could care less about the pot and pans ratteling!
    Thats the wifes problem over in the kitchen!

    If I had my way I would blow every nic-nac right off the shelves

    The one and only problem I have is with the bass messing with the tracking of the cartridge. It never seems to fail but when things really get to sounding great and rocking, then the TT gets to skipping which is not a good thing at high volumes.

    She won't allow me to encase the TT in concrete in HER living room so I am attempting to improvise or is it compromise?
    Around here, when the pots and pans start ratteling its just an indication that things are good!

    Happy to hear you like my speakers. I had to build them in the Mission Oak Style just to get clear LR passage. Man, the things we do to keep these ladies happy!

    Gary

  6. #6
    Senior Member jim campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Here is the problem. My living room floor and walls have some flex issues and if I even walk too hard the needle will skip. When I get the music cranking the pots and pans hanging on the oposite (Kitchen) side of the living room wall rattle quite alot.

    Here is a photo and my idea that I need some advice on.



    The shelf to the right of the speaker where the jug is is a very solid masonary fireplace attached to ground foundation. There is an identicle fire place directly under this one in the basement so it is solid as rock.

    My idea is to place the TT where the jug is but to make a stand on the shelf with a couple of cement blocks and a slate top to place the TT at about the top of the speaker height.
    I think this will provide a solid base for the TT that won't be affected by walking or floor/wall movement
    first,whats under the floor where the gear lives.is a telepost and a small beam that spans the joists feasible?
    wall mounting was tried here by a lot of folks i used to know with those finicky thorens tables and it usually didnt work.i make 1/4 " plywood discs with a hole saw and sandwich it between pieces of carpet the same size and shape and place the speaker's spikes or rubber feet on those.this protects the floor and isolates usually for a tighter lf.

  7. #7
    Gary L
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    Great observation Jim but NO. Directly under is another fire place and my pool table and second system. Adding jack posts is not an option but would probably solve 90% of the problems.

    I am still not completely convinced the bass is the culprit here.
    Sure it is what gets the floor and walls moving but I am hopeing by stationing the TT on solid ground, (Stone Harth) will solve the issues.

    I honestly don't often get things cranking that loud to cause problems but even just walking heavy while a record is spinning will cause skips.

    As I stated, "short of major reconstruction" is where I am attempting to go here.

    Gary

  8. #8
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    How about some of these?
    The Vibrapod Company

  9. #9
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    Turntables can be tricky. If you are having obvious problems you are probably also having less obvious problems that may become obvious to you in time if you manage to fix the skipping and such so that you can actually play records. I haven't done this myself but have you considered converting your analog media to digital, while not using the speakers and then listening to it from CD's. If you are one of those religious, analog is good digital sucks types then all I can say is you are entitled to that belief and I don't have any suggestions and don't wish to argue that issue. To fasten to your stone work you can probably find an adhesive that is strong as stone and can be removed with a particular solvent if you look a little. Personally I think that the "analog is better" crowd only even have an argument (when we are comparing LP's to CD's) when you have the very best of circumstances with the LP's (best media, best equipment, best environment, etc.) under those conditions they may be right, I think these things hardly ever all line up so I don't pay them a lot of attention. You are talking fair to good equipment, lousy environment and I have no clue on your media so I don't see how you can lose by recording your LP's and if you get better digital recording equipment later you can do it again and you will not have worn out your media. Just my opinion. Some will disagree. Some think a Linn only plays best when set on a chess board atop four upside down water tumblers. I've no idea if the brand of the chess board or the water tumblers is important.
    If you persist in trying to play LP's and manage to fix your gross problem (skipping) the next problem you may have is the LP picking up sound waves and transmitting them to your cartridge. Sometimes a soft gooey mat can help with that, as can a clamp. Sometimes more suspension helps other times less is better. You have probably noticed that some tables come with very soft loose suspension and some have none at all. Good luck. I still have a turntable and I probably will hook it up again some day but it will probably be to record. I sure don't miss the trouble and LP's that were better than well recorded CD's (if they were) were very expensive and time consuming to maintain. Plus if you think drinking and driving is a no no! Drinking and playing good records on a quality turntable is a felony. At least it was at my house. Who wants to be a designated DJ?

  10. #10
    Gary L
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    Laughing out loud Thom!

    I have no desire to argue any sonic virtues either so no problems from me.

    Fact is I have my most favorite music on the albums I grew up with and have always maintained them and only ever played them on decent equipment.
    There is also something quite special about spinning an LP in todays digital world. Weather or not they sound better or worse has no meaning to me because they sound different and bring back fond memories.

    As for your idea of burning all my LPs to disc. Not a bad idea except you are discussing this with a computer idiot who can't seem to burn a CD to disc that will then play on my stereo CDP. Honestly, if I had my own way this computer would be in the trash and digital would not have ever made it. It is a mental block and I simply refuse to learn computers and all the new formats so I prefer to maintain my vintage Sansui G 9000s and my TTs and Altecs. Again, nothing to argue unless you enjoy arguing with yourself.

    I will build my solid TT stand and try it out on my solid fire place harth.
    I may have to buy some cushioning feet or even a seperate phono stage so I can lengthen the connects. I may even have to settle for listening at lower volumes but I will have one of my nice TTs set up where I do most of my listening.

    If I can say this without getting too much argument, my LPs tend to sound much closer to live performances then any other format I have ever had. Kind of like good, clean dirt.
    I had a friend over with his 14 year old son who is very much in to music.
    He had never heard an album played with nice equipment so I played Dark side of the moon on the original LP format. Now he is saving to buy one of my SL1200MKlls and starting to search for nice LPs.
    If he turns out to be as nice a kid as he appears and serious about it, I will give him the TT and let him spend the cash on some good vinyl.

    Gary

  11. #11
    Senior Member jim campbell's Avatar
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    okay plan b...........and i totally agree with the analog loyalty..........if the joists in the floor below cannot be braced with jack posts what about cutting 3/4 ply strips the same size and shape as the floor joists and reinforcing them .a temporary jack is inserted and when the tension is relieved bolt them in place and remove the jack.if the downstairs ceiling is sheeted then it may be too much work but its good to touch on as many options as possible before jumping in wallet first................

  12. #12
    Gary L
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    Yet another great observation but I have already checked all the options.
    Under floor is highly insulated and has a drop ceiling with lighting. I won't say I can't go there but again, major job.

    The obsticles I have to clear are many! Had I built this home I would have done things differently and more solid.

    I am willing to go just so far to get the TT on solid ground. I do have some great ideas and input from here and now I have to weigh the cost/time involved factors and come up with a good plan.
    My thought is that a solid stand on the solid Harth should solve 90% of the issues. I have to build it Mission Style to appease the other half-- Her Living room, don't you know!
    Have all the quarter sawn oak and drew up some plans. Now I need a couple of rain days from real work to get it done.
    Once I get it set up I will probably have other hurdles to clear, cushion feet, longer connects, different spot Ect:
    Like all these projects, I am working within some set parameters and it is great to hear various ideas from you guys how I might over come some of them. I hope no one gets upset if I don't go with their plan or idea. Wife is pretty easy going with my obsessions but a few things I learned early is to not mess with her Kitchen, Living room or Laundry room. I love good cooking, hate pink underware and am perfectly satisfied with having a nice system in the LR by my favorite seat which is dead middle between nice Altecs and a 36" TV and all is good. I am sure I could fix this but probably break something else in the process, my MO.

    Gary

  13. #13
    Senior Member louped garouv's Avatar
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    i find that better than a TT on "solid ground" is a "suspended" TT....

    a member goes into the basics of a "suspended" design here, and there are some other suggestions if you search "turntable isolation"

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...60&postcount=9

    I built a suspended turntable platform, and am loving it ever since....

    takes a bit to get used to when you are changing records or cueing them up, but once you get used to it....



    supposedly, I have read, the rubberband's (used to support the platform that the TT rests on) resonant frequency is ~ 2 hz


    other folks seem pretty happy with Isonoe feet and other simmilar products

    http://www.isonoe.com/

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