Objectionable uses of information on this website

[glen]

Some members have voiced their discontent with how information gathered from this site has sometimes been exploited. I would like to first explore what members would regard as an "abuse" of the information on this site. And then discuss what, if anything, should be done about it.

[Audiobeer]

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad. I remember copying a description from the Vintage Tuner page to an Ebay ad. I was reminded by the moderater from that page that I was infringing upon copyright laws by copying without permission. He was absolutely right.

[4313B]

I would like to first explore what members would regard as an "abuse" of the information on this site. And then discuss what, or if, should be done about it.

With respect to the membership of this website abusing information on it, the most serious abusers were actually banned. They went on to use that information to gain and enhance their "respectability" and "credibility" on other websites. What can we do? Not a whole lot. There will always be posers. Of course it is irritating to see posers get undue acknowledgement but there isn't much anyone can do about that either.

We do have some very respectful posters here which is nice. Earl springs immediately to mind.

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.

Yeah, that would be nice.

I had a real problem with allowing the bots to scrape this site but kicking them would have negatively impacted growing it so whatever.

[Zilch]

The worst of it is when sellers copy text and/or images from the site without crediting the source. I'd find it much more acceptable if they'd link here as appropriate.

It's insulting, actually.

[And a copyright violation....]

[kingjames]

I've seen ebay ad's where catalogs were sold and all the one's this guy had were on this site.Make's me believe that he copied them from here sold them on ebay and made some money. The bad thing is that most people don't know this info is available here free of charge.I believe if a current member does this then execution would be too easy.

[4313B]

Don and Co. already had a go around with him. I think Harman said they weren't interested in going after him. It's talked about elsewhere on this site.

[glen]

I think that it's important to make a distinction about the kinds of information on this site since each should probably be treated differently.

1. Previously Published Material: Images and text of JBL and other publications, catalogs etc. which are copyrighted by JBL, Altec, etc., but are not current information important to the business and livelihood of the copyright holder. Sharing this information was one of the major reasons that this website was founded and I love that (Thanks Don, Steve and Steve). The copyright holders have chosen not to enforce their rights to control this information either here or in other public forums where it is openly published and traded.

2. Original Articles: Often developed from first-hand research for this website that are authored and copyrighted by individual contributors and appears on the website WITH a copyright notice.

3. Proprietary Information: resulting from special knowledge or of members that is still owned and controlled by JBL (or whoever) and only appears by their special permission. This would include things like knowledge of upcoming products or current production processes. In this case the copyright holder wants to maintain control of how the information is handled if and when it is released to the public.

4. Public Posts: Appearing here in the forums, by the members. I don't believe this information is normally copyrighted even though it is often the product of significant investments of work and time, sometimes built upon years of hard-won and studiously aquired knowledge or serious first hand research. In most cases I believe that the authors are intending to share this information freely, like a letter to the editor of a newspaper. Or at least they do not have an expectation of privacy, like a conversation in a public place.

[Thom]

Nobody likes to feel abused but if some "unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing is the worst that we're ever used we're among a lucky few walking this earth. Some that are pretty valuable members are upfront in the audio business in one way or another and at least some of them would probably charge most of us prices we might find exorbitant, but that's not a ripoff. that's the business they're in and if you "play" and won't pay those prices, you don't. Myself, I'm not too much into selling and rarely get rid of anything cheap. rarely get rid of anything period actually. I've been approached by others a few times on items I had and told them what I would let mine go for and told of others I've seen cheaper but if I did this for money I wouldn't do that and people can't be expected to do that and there are non audio things I wouldn't do that about. Also a person can't get more money for something just because someone here said he can. someone has to be willing to pay it. If it's on eBay and only one guy wants it and he doesn't want it very bad, it won't bring much money or it won't sell. Yes some people abuse but some people beet themselves up about it much more than the abuser ever could. I'm going to have to learn to type or learn to use less words.

[Titanium Dome]

I'm going to have to learn to type or learn to use less words.

I can type, but I still should use less words.

-----------

I just don't like lazy people who try to profit off the work and generosity of others, without so much as an acknowledgment or thank you. Yet, there's little to be done about it other than to make a mental note that they're assholes and have as little to do with them as possible.

Don's attitude is the best for long life.

[Zilch]

We're not going to get anywhere with eBay without being the official VERO for the copyrights, but we can sure pile on the seller when a violation is cited here....

[Thom]

I just see a few members suggesting that we punish ourselves for their transgressions and I don't get it.

For anyone who thinks maybe I'm participating a bit too much. Be patient. I'll be back to work before you know it.

[glen]

"unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing.

I understand that you may feel misled or tricked by someone who misrepresents their situation when asking for pricing advice. But I doubt that these types of questions (and the misrepresentations) will ever stop.
When you answer such questions in a public forum you will have no control over how the questioner, or anyone else viewing the forum will use that info.

If anyone here feels so personally invested in the pricing advice they give that it feels like abuse when it is used in an unforseen manner it would probably be better if they restricted the scope of, or even refrained from offering, their advice.

Some of the misrepresentation may be the result of attacks on questioners who have been up front about their mercenary motives. Some first time posters looking for help have been mercilessly derided and accused of scamming. This type of aggressive behavior didn't really encourage curious sellers to be straighforward about their intentions.

I think that you should also allow for the fact that some folks might honestly change their minds. I have ended up trading away a driver that I originally intended to keep after a member here informed me of it's rarity and value.

Which brings me to the benefits of being a place where such questions are answered whether or not the questioner is being truthful about their motives:

Sometimes really rare and interesting stuff turns up, and likely as not the more outrageous the pricing, the more interesting it is. And the discussion that it sparks will be archived here in the forum rather than stuck in an ebay auction waiting to expire.

Sellers with something to gain are highly motivated to document what they're selling. They furnish pictures, and volunteer serial numbers much more readily than most members.

Better information about a system probably WILL increase it's price. But that's really a GOOD thing. A rising tide lifts all boats, meaning that as prices rise the equipment you already own will increase in value as well. It also increases the chance that systems will be valued, collected and exchanged rather than being tossed out at the curb (where I've found a couple of systems)

So even though a person might feel "used", there are good reasons to be the place where such information is sought, and your ultimate conclusion sums it up pretty well:

. . .if some "unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing is the worst that we're ever used we're among a lucky few walking this earth. . . .

[glen]

we can sure pile on the seller when a violation is cited here....

A violation of what?

You are one of the members who has contributed a lot of work which has benefitted the forum greatly so I really want to know what you regard as a violation and the particulars of situations where you feel you have been taken advantage of.

This thread is about trying to clearly define inappropriate or objectionable uses of information on the site.

Violation implies some existing rule has been broken, but I haven't seen any expressed or implied limitations on the use of information and images on this site and in the forums, except for some articles that are clearly marked as copyrighted.

Are you thinking of a case where a copyrighted article from this site is quoted somewhere (presumably without permission)?

[glen]

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.
Yeah, that would be nice.

I just don't like lazy people who try to profit off the work and generosity of others, without so much as an acknowledgment or thank you.

So it seems that the most common desire is that the value of the information be acknowledged with some recognition of this site as the source. Maybe also recognizing the author of a quoted post as well
We might offer a link, and/or a logo that could be included too.

Yet, there's little to be done about it other than to make a mental note that they're assholes and have as little to do with them as possible..

I think before we consign them to the overcrowded realms of asshole-dom we should make an effort to express any agreed-upon preferences that we have about how information from the site is used in a way that is clear and un-missable to even a casual, novice visitor. Maybe a sticky at the top of every forum topic: "If you are using this information elsewhere . . ." within which would be spelled out exaclty how someone might use info in a way that most members would find acceptable.

I was reminded by the moderater from that page that I was infringing upon copyright laws by copying without permission. He was absolutely right.

Such a gentle reminder would probably be more effective than over-emotional needling or piling on.

[glen]

participating a bit too much.

No Such Thing