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Thread: Off Topic Forum

  1. #16
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    Yes, but anybody ELSE?
    There are forums all over the web for many many topics -
    I guess I didn't see why we needed political discussions here with there are all kinds of perspectives available (in much more detail) elsewhere ...
    We can sure pick enough fights just talking about Audio here ...

    I figure the Lansing Forum doesn't really need to be all things to all peoples, right? (Understand that I had NO say in the decision that was made)
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
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  2. #17
    Senior Member jim campbell's Avatar
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    ive said it before,but here goes.if two members met in the real world i dont doubt that the conversation would encompass a wide range of topics related and unrelated to jbl and audio in general,with the possible exception of the tech types and aside from the dicipline problems faced by the mods from time to time i kind of liked the ot section.id like to think that i can log on here to converse with people that i have something in common with on anything and everything.i believe that we lose more than we gain from this decision

  3. #18
    Senior Member spkrman57's Avatar
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    I agree with closing the "off topic" category!

    I come here for audio only!

    Just my 2 cents worth!

    Ron
    JBL Pro for home use!

  4. #19
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    There are forums all over the web for many many topics -
    I guess I didn't see why we needed political discussions here with there are all kinds of perspectives available (in much more detail) elsewhere ...
    We can sure pick enough fights just talking about Audio here ...
    I agree about politics and related threads. And yes, I am sure there are other forums that might be useful for different discussions. BUT, on this forum all the members have Lansing as a common interest, and that is important to me. On other forums all kinds of "shit" are discussed, and the tone is not to my liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    I figure the Lansing Forum doesn't really need to be all things to all peoples, right? (Understand that I had NO say in the decision that was made)
    Well, I find it to my liking. Only one forum where I could post about my hobbies, not just JBL, but also other hobbies.

    As the forum probably won't come back, I guess we who want to have to keep in touch on normal mail. But it will exclude many members to find other interests they (we) might have in common.

    I understand the the ones on this forum that only want to discuss technical and pure restoration of vintage stuff wanted the "off topic" gone. I have seen many statements of this over the past years. But also understand that many of us have been good friends via the "off topic" forum. Many of us have visited each other, and that would not happened if the "off topic" forum had never existed.

    I have a question to the moderators that made this decision: Would it not have been right to ASK the MEMBERS what THEY want first? Start a poll or something?

    Anyway, you will see a lot less of me here when the "off topic" forum is gone. But I guess that is what is wanted, not just me, but a lot of other members.

  5. #20
    Maron Horonzakz
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    I would like to suggest...Lets get rid of the Birthday site...It has no social audio value...Unless you want to send flowers with a audio gift.

  6. #21
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim campbell View Post
    ...i kind of liked the ot section.id like to think that i can log on here to converse with people that i have something in common with on anything and everything.
    I agree, however in this version of the "real world" it really didn't work out like that. While we have had many interesting and sometimes entertaining discussions, there have been far too many that degraded to pure mud slinging.

    These discussion forums were originally added to the site so that we Lansing heritage fans could have a place to share our experiences enjoying, repairing, and collecting Lansing Mfg., Altec, and JBL. It has grown into a community where we discuss audio in general and far ranging topics, however the Market Place and the Off Topic areas have frequently been plagued with poor conduct from some of our membership.

    There has also been a lot of discussion about removing or reducing the Market Place as well. Let's hope that we can act like the civil people we are outside of this virtual community and keep that going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    I have a question to the moderators that made this decision: Would it not have been right to ASK the MEMBERS what THEY want first? Start a poll or something?
    That was discussed also. The idea of having another long winded circular argument between a handful of OT fans and a handful of OT detractors seemed pretty pointless.


    Widget

  7. #22
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    I'll clarify my point of view, if I may, at the risk of wasting bandwidth.

    The OT forum is as valuable as any other from a social standpoint, but I'm a guest here. I've personally met a few really good people here and I'm sure there's a lot more good people to meet.

    The expense to run this site can't be trivial, and moderating has got to be tedious volunteer work, that the pay doesn't live up to. I'm not willing to monetarily contribute every month, but I do get customer's referred to me and I dispense a fair amount of JBL Servicer info that's not always public domain knowledge.

    I'm grateful for this site and the history that it's intended to preserve, and the DIY innovation that it fosters.

    I'll make periodic contributions to help defray the expense of operation.

    This is Don McRitchie's house....not a Social Services Community Center.

    That's why it's ok with me to end the OT forum.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  8. #23
    Senior Member JBLnsince1959's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That was discussed also. The idea of having another long winded circular argument between a handful of OT fans and a handful of OT detractors seemed pretty pointless.


    Widget
    yes indeed, I can understand completely how allowing the very people who use the forum to express their opinions would seem pointless to some Moderators..

    Of course we could have just had a vote and that would have eliminated all the "pointless discussion," but then a vote to the members might have "unfairly" affected the outcome...

    I agree with the way the moderators did this..without any members knowlege or warning... the last thing we would want is for people to express their opinions or feelings about one of the most popular forums on this site. Why waste bandwidth when the outcome is already decided?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    however the Market Place and the Off Topic areas have frequently been plagued with poor conduct from some of our membership.

    There has also been a lot of discussion about removing or reducing the Market Place as well. Let's hope that we can act like the civil people we are outside of this virtual community and keep that going.

    Widget
    Thank GOD for that, yes, the conduct in a few posts; in a few threads; by a few people; from time to time certainly provides the reason to eliminate the entire forum and not just the particular threads or posts. Unlike the other "audio" forums where there has never been any bad behavior, fights, name calling or "Off Topic wanderings".....in fact the "audio" forums are shining examples of civil behavior between two different opinions....The Steve Gonzales/Giskard "discussions" come to mind.

    I'm glad that the moderators are finally taking some real action here and HOPEFULLY they will hold ALL Forums ( Incuding Lansing Product General Information, Lansing Product Technical Help, Lansing Product DIY Forum ) to the same high standards as the Off Topic and Market Place and should ANY AUDIO forum be "plagued with poor conduct" or go off topic, that the moderators would eliminate those entire forums for all time too as well ( to make sure they can never even be read) and not just remove the particualr "offending" thread or post....after all the last thing the moderators would want is to appear unfair or bias...

    Anyway, thanks for the continued work...... I certainly hope that ALL Forums will be under the same conditions and rules... keep up the good work

  9. #24
    Senior Member kingjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I agree, however in this version of the "real world" it really didn't work out like that. While we have had many interesting and sometimes entertaining discussions, there have been far too many that degraded to pure mud slinging.

    These discussion forums were originally added to the site so that we Lansing heritage fans could have a place to share our experiences enjoying, repairing, and collecting Lansing Mfg., Altec, and JBL. It has grown into a community where we discuss audio in general and far ranging topics, however the Market Place and the Off Topic areas have frequently been plagued with poor conduct from some of our membership.

    There has also been a lot of discussion about removing or reducing the Market Place as well. Let's hope that we can act like the civil people we are outside of this virtual community and keep that going.

    That was discussed also. The idea of having another long winded circular argument between a handful of OT fans and a handful of OT detractors seemed pretty pointless.


    Widget
    Mr.widget I hope the next area's won't be member screening. Are you a Democrat,are you a Republican, are you pro JBL,are you pro Altec, etc;,etc;etc;.

    Closing off topic is one thing,closing the marketplace is stupid. How do you think most members find their items? For some of the member's that don't have time to look on ebay for whatever reason,it is good to see someone post in the marketplace a particular item of interest.

    How is it that you can compare the off topic area with the marketplace area? Am I missing something here?Where's the mud-slinging in the marketplace?

    I have no choice but to agree to you're decision to close the off topic area, I just didn't realize that this site was looking for yes JBL,no JBL,type members.

    I think you will have in the end caused more problem's for this site than acomplished.I think it is a priviledge to belong to this site but it is no longer any fun. There's just not that many sentence's that I can think of to put the word JBL in.

    I think you're's and the other power's to be decision to do this will backfire.No forum can survive without the human element involved and your attempt to silence it, is at least complete censorship.

    I guess this will have to be the price we pay if we want to belong to LHS!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 04-24-2007 at 01:55 PM. Reason: disrepsectful question.

  10. #25
    Senior Member SMKSoundPro's Avatar
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    Let it go!

    Say, How about the price that paragon sold for? $16,600!

    Does anyone know of the T/S parameters of JBL 2240's, 2241's and the aftermarket 2241 cone kits that are available?

    Will adding a tweeter to your Valencia help?

    Does a vintage JBL speaker system sound diferently in Arizona, than Alaska?

    POINT: There are SO many discusiions to have about relevent Heritage items. If you want to discuss the news or spin of the day...call in to a radio talkshow!!!! They're free, and that "care" about your viewpoint, if it makes their hour go by quicker!!!

    I applaud the owner, adminstrators and moderators of LH! Job well done!

    My check is in the mail!!!

    Signed,
    Scott M. Koeller.
    One step above: "Two Tin Cans and a String!"
    Longtime Alaskan Low-Fi Guy - E=MC² ±3db

  11. #26
    Senior Member kingjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    Guys - no one has banned Democrats or Republicans or anyone! Chill! Don't make assumptions and don't presume.

    The Marketplace is still here - Coulda Woulda Shoulda isn't relevant - it DIDN'T go away, now did it?

    I never complained about it, for what its worth, but I can remember a couple folks got burned with some Nightw!ng grill cloth or a driver sale from a guy in VA that never shipped - and thats recent - certainly some of you remember other bad deals. But I imagine the fact that they were very few and folks were adult about is why the marketplace is still here.

    The "Al Gore- global warming" thread went 30 pages and folks STILL couldn't resist kicking that dead horse over and over ... I don't care and certainly DON'T want to renew it here, its just an example off the top of my head ... there were plenty other OT threads thats got REALLY MEAN (or real stupid). That probably was a big pain in the Mods ... time.

    Lets go talk speakers, you folks in here can kill a good vibe REAL QUICK!
    Well it seems to me that is what's coming. I remember the cloth and I don't remember being part of it or any other member. I don't advertise my item's on the forum for this reason unless someone bring's up my item's from ebay.

    I make assumptions based on current event's and it was after Mr.Widget suggested that this area was also discussed for closure that I assumed we were being forewarned.

    I can live with this idea but I think they just took all the fun out of this forum. I will be a gentleman though and leave this topic alone and deal with it the way I deal with everything.With Hope!

  12. #27
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
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    Actually, I bought a spare slot tweeter and a spare horn through 2 sales in the marketplace here - no problem. Fair prices and both work great!
    Got some other stuff from Ian, Seawold and Subwoof and others via PMs and emails here - great stuff good price, and a lot of information offered to me in the process.
    Again, no problems.

    Currently selling my L36s here (and already have an offer), and expect it will go smoothly as well. I have been lucky, friends ... but not everyone is.

    So the Moderators have to deal with those kind of issues of folks threatening to send out Rambo to recover the money some dog ripped them off for.

    And from the comment there was no real issue of the Marketplace going away, they talked about.

    The other stuff you are talking about is worrymongering. No one is deciding who may join and who will go - and to even discuss such a thing is - well, its crazy talk.

    I'm not a moderator here - but I have built and worked in other forums and its a thankless job.

    C'mon, let this thread die and go back to other topics ...




    Quote Originally Posted by kingjames View Post
    Well it seems to me that is what's coming. I remember the cloth and I don't remember being part of it or any other member. I don't advertise my item's on the forum for this reason unless someone bring's up my item's from ebay.

    I make assumptions based on current event's and it was after Mr.Widget suggested that this area was also discussed for closure that I assumed we were being forewarned.

    I can live with this idea but I think they just took all the fun out of this forum. I will be a gentleman though and leave this topic alone and deal with it the way I deal with everything.With Hope!
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
    7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460

  13. #28
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That was discussed also. The idea of having another long winded circular argument between a handful of OT fans and a handful of OT detractors seemed pretty pointless.


    Widget
    There doesn't had be be a "long winded circular argument". Just a poll with "do you want it or not".

    The moderators always win here. I have a problem with this non democratic way of making choices.

    If a thread "has no meaning" (as I asked about) the thread starter could get a warning by PM, and if that doesn't help, ban him or her. Not close down a thread that obviously is very popular.

    I should like to know who exactly made this choice, but that will probably never be told.

    I just say that I am very disappointed.

  14. #29
    Senior Member kingjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post

    The other stuff you are talking about is worrymongering. No one is deciding who may join and who will go - and to even discuss such a thing is - well, its crazy talk.
    I did decide to leave this alone however you seem hell bent on taking my words out of context.

    Where does It say I believe that member screening is a reality? However if there are no checks and balances here then who's to say this won't be a requirement in the future.

    HJ, please read my post again and you will see this is not worry-mongering as you say but a question that I asked.

  15. #30
    Senior Señor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    The OT forum is as valuable as any other from a social standpoint
    But the question became: Does the "cost" of the social experience tax the merits of the technical forum?" We had a unanimous "Yes" to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    This is Don McRitchie's house...
    And one which he always wished would stay "professional" in the eyes of JBL and at-the-least well mannered. That repeatedly became difficult with spill-overs from OT - much became downright embarrasing...

    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    ...not a Social Services Community Center.
    Agreed, and that became an enormous time sink for moderating, and to no useful end - we were merely plugging holes in ever-taller dikes on all sides of arguments/discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959 View Post
    yes indeed, I can understand completely how allowing the very people who use the forum to express their opinions would seem pointless to some Moderators..
    Wrong. It was interesting, and most of us have participated there. However, it morphed into a dominant beast for many's involvement here - they came here for little else! It was detracting from the site as a whole. That "experience" was costly to maintain and not anything relevant to JBL.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959 View Post
    I agree with the way the moderators did this..without any members knowlege or warning... the last thing we would want is for people to express their opinions or feelings about one of the most popular forums on this site. Why waste bandwidth when the outcome is already decided?????
    Tongue in cheek, or do you mean that? The outcome was in no-way predecided. We labored long (too long, many of you think..) on this decision. It was not done lightly nor without deep discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959 View Post
    Thank GOD for that, yes, the conduct in a few posts; in a few threads; by a few people; from time to time certainly provides the reason to eliminate the entire forum and not just the particular threads or posts. Unlike the other "audio" forums where there has never been any bad behavior, fights, name calling or "Off Topic wanderings".....in fact the "audio" forums are shining examples of civil behavior between two different opinions...
    We cannot be every where at every time. We stand a better chance of encurring less argument in things on topic. OT is too wide a landscape and anything goes. The unintended consequence of having that was spill-over of behavior there, into the Forum proper. That was not desireable and a detraction to this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959 View Post
    I'm glad that the moderators are finally taking some real action here and HOPEFULLY they will hold ALL Forums ( Incuding Lansing Product General Information, Lansing Product Technical Help, Lansing Product DIY Forum ) to the same high standards...
    That is the plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959 View Post
    ....that the moderators would eliminate those entire forums for all time too as well ( to make sure they can never even be read) and not just remove the particualr "offending" thread or post....after all the last thing the moderators would want is to appear unfair or bias...
    This is not the plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjames View Post
    Mr.widget I hope the next area's won't be member screening.
    Your hope is fulfilled...

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjames View Post
    I think you will have in the end caused more problem's for this site than acomplished. I think it is a priviledge to belong to this site but it is no longer any fun. There's just not that many sentence's that I can think of to put the word JBL in.
    Ah, now there is the crux of it. This is a JBL and related-thingy place. It morphed into a communal internet cafe where all manner of things were posted - it lately became a place where news headlines were posted. There are other locals better suited for that.

    We prefer this place stay more focussed, as designed. We created OT years ago due to user demand - it backfired, for sure. We never understood, that the wide-range of topics and the depth of emotion (not passion, but emotion..) which erupted in OT would compromise much of the relevant interaction on the Forum. The JBL forum is about passion - OT became only so much emotion...

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjames View Post
    I think you're's and the other power's to be decision to do this will backfire. No forum can survive without the human element involved and your attempt to silence it, is at least complete censorship.
    We are a JBL and louspeaker knowledge resource. People will come here to seek answers and offer solutions. We will go the YouTube and CNN for those sorts of activities - blogs are springing up everywhere...

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjames View Post
    I guess this will have to be the price we pay if we want to belong to LHS!
    We hope it will make the experience more relevant, and look forward to your contributions and questions in those topics.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

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