Horns in a 14' room - 2380 or 2385

[scorpio]

Anyone has any experience of comparing 2380 with 2385 for integration in a relatively small room? This would be to mate with 2450's and LE15A, and 2405 to fill in at the top. Since 2380 is described as a 'short throw', I'd guess the integration would be better, but was wondering if anyone tried both as comparison

Cheers,

[Zilch]

See P.21 here:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

[scorpio]

Thanks Zilch. I understand the impact of wider dispersion on imaging characteristics, but my question was more directed towards possible problems of integration with the bass speaker, and how that relates with the concept of short vs medium throw,

[edgewound]

Thanks Zilch. I understand the impact of wider dispersion on imaging characteristics, but my question was more directed towards possible problems of integration with the bass speaker, and how that relates with the concept of short vs medium throw,

Considering the LE15A is a lower efficiency woofer, yes, the shorter throw, wider dispersion horn would be more desirable from a power response standpoint....in other words, it won't be so much as looking at a "spotlight" of output...not being so intense when listening directly on axis...as well as imaging a wider soundstage too.

The 2380/85 were designed for sound reinforcement applications. The LE15A was always used with a lens (even in the Paragon with the convex dispersion panel) to shorten and spread out the dispersion.

Otherwise, for hi fi, the 2385 will plaster your ears against the back wall.

[johnaec]

Otherwise, for hi fi, the 2385 will plaster your ears against the back wall.

If you like plaster ears, I've got a couple spare 2385A's...

John

[scorpio]

Hi Edgewound,
Would you have other recommendations on horns that could mate better in this system and relatively small room? I'm trying to learn all I can about these systems, yet it's clear that trial in the room is the ultimate proof, but there's so much to try... I just know that I can extract a more balanced result from my component (it's a little 'head in a vice' right now with the circular horns I'm using.
I had not read before about linking woofer efficiency with dispersion, the LE15A was used in a number of standard boxes as well, wasn't it? Would this mean that I have to move to Altec 416 or 515 to have better integration with 2385 type horns?

Thanks and sorry if this is basic or already cover somewhere else,

[Robh3606]

The main difference between short throw and long throw is Q. The long throws are high Q, high directivity. The original lenses were not much better in the vertical axis 40 vs 45 than the 2380/85

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...lens/page3.jpg

If you don't like the head in the vise and like the freedom to move around a bit short throw low Q is the way to go

Rob

[edgewound]

Hi Edgewound,
Would you have other recommendations on horns that could mate better in this system and relatively small room? I'm trying to learn all I can about these systems, yet it's clear that trial in the room is the ultimate proof, but there's so much to try... I just know that I can extract a more balanced result from my component (it's a little 'head in a vice' right now with the circular horns I'm using.
I had not read before about linking woofer efficiency with dispersion, the LE15A was used in a number of standard boxes as well, wasn't it? Would this mean that I have to move to Altec 416 or 515 to have better integration with 2385 type horns?

Thanks and sorry if this is basic or already cover somewhere else,

Hi Scorpio,

I wouldn't really consider myself a horn guru, but...

Look at the specs here for the 2" JBL 238x horns and it will give a clue as to the horn sensitivities based on the coverage pattern:

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/componen...0ser.htm#2382A

The 2382 has a 120x40 pattern which results in a decrease of about 4dB from the 2385's 60x40 pattern. I'd say that's pretty significant. If you're worried about pattern control and reflections off of walls (most hi fi listeners don't care) I'd say go with the narrower throw and pad down the driver to make it more tolerable.

This is, of course, the easy route with the 2382 if you've already got 2385's in a cabinet....it's just a drop-in replacement.


My preference for hifi and compression drivers is to use round wave guide type horns that don't try to physically reshape the soundwaves from spherical to square. To me...it just doesn't sound natural.

You could query Mr. Widget, Jack Bouska, and JohnW on horn design. They've displayed some masterful insight and crafstmanship on this area.
The search function will find their input from past postings. JohnW's lathe turning is exquisite.

[speakerdave]

I think it's a tough assignment, and you might need to consider another approach. That series of horns is made for SR; the standards are different. I think it would have to be shown that any of them would play at a hi fi standard down to 500 Hz. I'm not aware of JBL using any of them to 500 Hz in an SR system. The only professionally designed system I know of that used a 238x horn ostensibly for home is Daniels'; he used the 2382 and crossed into it at about 1200 Hz. When he used the one he built, he used it for SR. JBL used the 2360 at 500 Hz in a speaker for theaters. Those who have tried these horns speak highly of them, if you have the room, and can push your chair back a ways. That's the smallest horn I'm aware of JBL using at 500 Hz in the last couple of decades.

I understand your wanting to be able to cross at 500 Hz, since that really is the limit of the LE15A. If you're set on using the LE15A you might consider adding a cone midrange between it and the horn. The systems in which JBL used the LE15A to a horn were all from the old days. I think the listening standards have changed and so have the ideas about designing speakers.

I'm using the 2450 (with aquaplased diaphragms) and think it's a dandy driver, but I have not tried it down to 500 Hz.

The "head in a vise" effect may be partly caused by running your non-CD midrange horn up far enough to meet the 2405, which should not be crossed in below 8000, and preferably higher than that.

Finding a horn to fill in a hi fi three-way between the LE15A and the 2405 is a tough assignment, in my view.

David

[Mannermusic]

I think it's a tough assignment, and you might need to consider another approach. That series of horns is made for SR; the standards are different. I think it would have to be shown that any of them would play at a hi fi standard down to 500 Hz. I'm not aware of JBL using any of them to 500 Hz in an SR system. The only professionally designed system I know of that used a 238x horn ostensibly for home is Daniels'; he used the 2382 and crossed into it at about 1200 Hz. When he used the one he built, he used it for SR. JBL used the 2360 at 500 Hz in a speaker for theaters. Those who have tried these horns speak highly of them, if you have the room, and can push your chair back a ways. That's the smallest horn I'm aware of JBL using at 500 Hz in the last couple of decades.

I understand your wanting to be able to cross at 500 Hz, since that really is the limit of the LE15A. If you're set on using the LE15A you might consider adding a cone midrange between it and the horn. The systems in which JBL used the LE15A to a horn were all from the old days. I think the listening standards have changed and so have the ideas about designing speakers.

I'm using the 2450 (with aquaplased diaphragms) and think it's a dandy driver, but I have not tried it down to 500 Hz.

The "head in a vise" effect may be partly caused by running your non-CD midrange horn up far enough to meet the 2405, which should not be crossed in below 8000, and preferably higher than that.

Finding a horn to fill in a hi fi three-way between the LE15A and the 2405 is a tough assignment, in my view.

David

I'm there! I think this is how a number of us ended up inserting 2123s @ 300 Hz between our LE15As and the horn of choice . . . and once you've done that, I doubt you will ever come back. Interesting horn for higher frequencies (> 1200 Hz) I ran into by accident: Selenium HL14-50. Cast Al exponential. Parts Express. I use in a well damped 20 X 22 environment with no lens whatever. Round 45 degree dispersion, mount to baffle similar to JBL. "In your face" hi fi but a warm, robust natural quality that blends beautifully with the 2123. Excellent hi frequency production using ancient 375 (2440) crossing to the 2405 @ 8K or above. Use no cut on the 375 and blend the 2405 as a "super tweeter 12 db/octave." Also sounds good with no tweeter at all - RTA shows good output to 10K Hz. For what it's worth (this and 99 cents will get you a coffee at MacDonalds), I regard the flat front horns as PA only - not really designed for hi fi from my readings and listening. No hi frequency response - must use EQ and still sounds non musical to me. Mike (ancient trumpet player)

[scorpio]

Thanks, I do trust what you are saying but I guess that I'll be searching a little longer. I started as single driver guy then got to 2-ways, thinking I'll never want to move to something more complex, and here came the 2405... I don't feel ready to try and fit a 4th way in there. Maybe I'll dump the LE15 if I can find something that would help,
Thanks though, I appreciate the info, and will keep it in mind in case my search is leading me nowhere!
Cheers

[Zilch]

Maybe I'll dump the LE15 if I can find something that would help....

Yup. 2235H.

[rs237]

I understand over the LE15 the written not completely. I love the LE15. I would like also with that 2441, 2405 and 2 LE15 3 way a box build. Ajar by the Design against the new Everest. Why 600Hz Xover is not ok. Why is better the 2235 than the LE15. I love the Underhung system of the LE15 and the light diaphragm (97g vs 155g with 2235). Ok with Xmax and Pmax is the 2235 in the advantage. That is me however not the level of 4 LE15 in my area completely is sufficient so importantly there. Thanks in advance for each answer. Apology for my bad english . I hope you can me understand.

regards

juergen

[scorpio]

Juergen, let me try to answer, it is not going to be easy with the language difference...
The problem is to find the best horn to use with the LE15. I have for the moment a round horn that I build myself, it has good sound, well balanced, but it is VERY directional (if I move my head 20 cm to the side, the balance of the sound is shifting...). I would like something not so directional but still providing some imaging to the sound, a,nd that could be cut at 600 Hz at most. I have tried using a 800-900 Hz crossover, but then, there is really a problem with the LE15, it is a bit high. I have also tried cutting mower (500 Hz), the result is clearly better, but then the horn becomes real big.

[Mannermusic]

Juergen, let me try to answer, it is not going to be easy with the language difference...
The problem is to find the best horn to use with the LE15. I have for the moment a round horn that I build myself, it has good sound, well balanced, but it is VERY directional (if I move my head 20 cm to the side, the balance of the sound is shifting...). I would like something not so directional but still providing some imaging to the sound, a,nd that could be cut at 600 Hz at most. I have tried using a 800-900 Hz crossover, but then, there is really a problem with the LE15, it is a bit high. I have also tried cutting mower (500 Hz), the result is clearly better, but then the horn becomes real big.

A horn that is very impressive and musical that I used for 20+ years with the LE15A was the 2390 with complimenting folded lens (active crossover, tri-amp). Otherwise know as HL89 from the old days. Perhaps this is the "cutting mower"you are talking about? Anyway, it has fantastic horizontal dispersion and simply lights up the room when listening to big band jazz or symphonic material. Amazing. Cross over is from 500 Hz up. Be sure to use the recommended baffle behind the lens. I used a Marantz 7C preamp (tube) which seemed to smooth things a bit. A lot depends on your musical interests/tastes. But, that baby will really "blow your dress up!" But, it is not without distortion, can be tiring - but many people like it. Mike