Homebrew 4343

[Bill Shenefelt]

[quote=GordonW;12034]Well, I'd be inclined to make up a "composite" from film caps, to achieve this value.


I had tried to build the JBL 3143 crossover for my 4343 speaker sets using components from JBL and their layout. I was not initially going to use the passive part at the 300 cps point so I did not buy the 52uf and 72uf caps nor the 2.9 and 5.4 mh coils.
The inductors are small and have the iron frame like a small transformer. The 20, 13.5, and 4 uF capacitors look like a paper wrap around a "wax" core, about an inch in diameter and 2 inches long. The smaller caps are the typical polypropylene (probably metallic) caps. The power resistors seem to be about 5% tolerance at best. I was about to order some 1% Dayton metallized poly caps to be jumped with 1 uF Audiocap PPT Theta film foil caps. The foils would parallel all but the 20uF 10 inch midbass ground cap. Also I was going to order 1% tolerance non inductive resistors for the whole circuit. Does this sound like a significant improvement or am I just wasting money? I would prefer to stay with an active crossover in the 300 cps point unless it is not as good as going with the JBGL passive design. I always was of the understanding that getting the bass out of the amp that is driving the high frequencies was a good thing. (My bass amp is a 250w/ch heathkit and my upper frequency amp is an Amber 100 w/ch. I also have the potential of going with a 1200 cps crossover to a McIntosh 240 tube amp for the horn and slot radiator is that is a good thing to do.

I currently have a Marchand X1 active crossover for 24/octave at 300 cps. Despite putting out a pretty flat summed output when attached directly to a spectrum analyzer, I seem to get output sound at the 10 inch midbass that is rolling off at almost 500 cps, not 300 cps giving me a 9 dB dip between about 300 and 500 cps as read on a microphone attached to the specrum analyzer (Polarity changes do not improve this dip). Shouldn't I be "entering" the 10 inch network at the input to the 1.7mH coil when going active? This is what I am doing and it seems to not give reasonable responce at the crossover region and above. I tested continuity and got less than an ohm resistance through all the inductors, but cannot test the capacitors.
Here is what I get with the active crossover in place checking 10 inch and 15 inch separately:
10 inch: 500 cps= -3dB, 355cps= - 9dB , 250cps=-15dB
15 inch: 500 cps= -18dB, 355cps= -15dB, 250cps=-3dB


I have a Marchand X44, 24dB/octave active crossover (cards for 300 and cards for 400 to allow a little overlap testing) on order. Before I buy all new passive components for the JBL passive stages can anyone tell me if the use of an active crossover (at 300 cps) is as good or better than using the whole JBL passive network including that for the bass driver? The appearance of the JBL passive network (at least for the mid bass and horn) suggests more than a simple second order network and I am sure is highly tailored to match the drivers. I just do not know if using the Marchand active for 300 cps will in some way detract from what JBL is doing in their active network. Anyone with experience with active vs passive (for the 300 cps crossover) on this speaker?

[B&KMan]

Hello,
I understands that you reproduced that partly the original circuit of JBL 3143??

if it is the case, you will butt yourselves like me to the hollow between the 15 and the 10. However you seem to have an active network??

and does the amplifiers necessary to make a load activate then why not go directly on this side and drop completely the network 3143??

the passive and active mixture is not best idea.

Have to perhaps check itself electrically if the active network that you use really makes it possible the 10 to go down or it badly is configured or network badly conceived??

some photographs and useful diagram is appreciated for better including/understanding your step and to help people with you help.



Jean.

[Bill Shenefelt]

I am only using the active network for the low pass to the 15 and high pass to the 10 inch driver. The 10 inch driver still requires a high frequency network to the midrange horn and then from the horn to the slot radiator. I think I have bypassed the passive netowrk that is the high pass into the 10 inch by not using the 52 uF and 2.9 mH Hhis is what the network to the 10 inch looks like.
http://www.sheneskillies.com/4343-to-10-inch.jpg
It cannot be eliminated since it is needed to roll of fthe high end to make the crossover to the horn driver.

In your crossover photos you seem to have air coil inductors. Are they better than the iron core ones that JBL uses? Also I have the paper and wax? large capacitors in the crossover. Are metalized polypropylene better?

Hello,
I understands that you reproduced that partly the original circuit of JBL 3143??

if it is the case, you will butt yourselves like me to the hollow between the 15 and the 10. However you seem to have an active network??

and does the amplifiers necessary to make a load activate then why not go directly on this side and drop completely the network 3143??

the passive and active mixture is not best idea.

Have to perhaps check itself electrically if the active network that you use really makes it possible the 10 to go down or it badly is configured or network badly conceived??

some photographs and useful diagram is appreciated for better including/understanding your step and to help people with you help.



Jean.

[Bill Shenefelt]

I am considering substituting air core inductors for the OEM iron core inductors in my 3143 networks. I understand that I should be matching the DC resistance of the JBL inductors. I can only measure to the readout of my fluke which is 0.1 ohm. I get the following values for the JBL and the spec for the air cores.
JBL 16 gage ..............air core substitute
mH.. gage ..DCR............... wire gage DCR
0.16mH --18 gage -0.1 ohm .........16gage 0.09 ohm
0.25mH <20(22?)gage 0.2 ohm .....16 gage 0.12 ohm
1.0mH <20gage 0.5 ohm .............16 gage 0.30 ohm
1.7mH <20gage 0.5 ohm .............16 gage 0.45

Is the 0.1 to 0.2 ohms significant?
Should I be inserting resistors at 0.1 ohm resistance to match things?
Anyone know the JBL DCR values to better than a tenth ohm?
Would thin be an improvement or a degredation to do the replacement?

[B&KMan]

hello,

the small difference is relevant on power output. this type of crossover came with a pot jbl fine tune ouput. so normally it is fine...

[B&KMan]

hello again,

be shure your project to replica of crossover keep factor of the change the recone 2235 in basket of 2231 , same as 10 and horn. the original design is better with original driver and cone.

do you decide to stabilize impedance driver by addition of zobel circuit impedance?

[Ian Mackenzie]

[quote=Bill Shenefelt;157040]

Does this sound like a significant improvement or am I just wasting money?


I would prefer to stay with an active crossover in the 300 cps point unless it is not as good as going with the JBGL passive design. I always was of the understanding that getting the bass out of the amp that is driving the high frequencies was a good thing. (My bass amp is a 250w/ch heathkit and my upper frequency amp is an Amber 100 w/ch. I also have the potential of going with a 1200 cps crossover to a McIntosh 240 tube amp for the horn and slot radiator is that is a good thing to do.

I currently have a Marchand X1 active crossover for 24/octave at 300 cps. Despite putting out a pretty flat summed output when attached directly to a spectrum analyzer, I seem to get output sound at the 10 inch midbass that is rolling off at almost 500 cps, not 300 cps giving me a 9 dB dip between about 300 and 500 cps as read on a microphone attached to the specrum analyzer (Polarity changes do not improve this dip). Shouldn't I be "entering" the 10 inch network at the input to the 1.7mH coil when going active? This is what I am doing and it seems to not give reasonable responce at the crossover region and above. I tested continuity and got less than an ohm resistance through all the inductors, but cannot test the capacitors.
Here is what I get with the active crossover in place checking 10 inch and 15 inch separately:
10 inch: 500 cps= -3dB, 355cps= - 9dB , 250cps=-15dB
15 inch: 500 cps= -18dB, 355cps= -15dB, 250cps=-3dB


I have a Marchand X44, 24dB/octave active crossover (cards for 300 and cards for 400 to allow a little overlap testing) on order. Before I buy all new passive components for the JBL passive stages can anyone tell me if the use of an active crossover (at 300 cps) is as good or better than using the whole JBL passive network including that for the bass driver? The appearance of the JBL passive network (at least for the mid bass and horn) suggests more than a simple second order network and I am sure is highly tailored to match the drivers. I just do not know if using the Marchand active for 300 cps will in some way detract from what JBL is doing in their active network. Anyone with experience with active vs passive (for the 300 cps crossover) on this speaker?

Hi Bill,

I have been so busy I have not had an opportunity to follow your project.

For clarity can you advise if you are modifying a stock 3143 network?

Or do you plan to build your own network?

Right off the bat messing with these 4 ways can get you in a lot more trouble than its worth unless you have a very clear understanding of the existing system and exactly how you propose to alter the stock implementation. What I am saying is unless you get it exactly right you will find yourself in a maze and the whole mess will become quite frustrating to say the least.

The stock 3143 has been arranged to provide a smooth transition between all the drivers allowing for their locations on the front baffle.

The network also provides the option of internal passive or external bi amping with a multi pole rotary switch. The switch isolates the woofer from the LF filter elements on the woofer and the HP elements on the mid cone driver.

It should be noted the voltage drive for the active crossover of the woofer and mid cone in the 4343 has been specifically tailored for these particular drivers and their location on the baffle.

You will NOT get the correct results with other than the designated voltage drive. A simple search will locate these elsewhere on the forums.

Refer to the 5234/35 Pdf manuals for the active filter RC values. It should be possible for Marchland to provide a customised card. If you get this right the active mode will be subjectively better with the Amber amp on the mid/top end. No question of that. Get it wrong and you will spend a lifetime wondering why it sounds not quite right.

I recommend you build new networks rather than attempt to upgrade the stock 3143. The reason is the bi amp switch will hinder any gains and replacing parts in the stock network will be difficult. You will also need to be very careful with all the phasing on the drivers.

If it were me I would write to Giskard nicely and arrange a pair 2122H to replace the 2121 and get new diamond surround aluminium diaphragms for the compression driver and get on the list for V 3 of the 3145 equivalent network. You stand to gain light years more from this approach than merely putting in better parts.

Ian

[Bill Shenefelt]

I thought it easiest to follow if I replied within the text belwo.
[quote=Ian Mackenzie;158711]

For clarity can you advise if you are modifying a stock 3143 network?
Not quite. The network I am rebuilding is one I built to the JBL design using "replacement parts I bought from JBL I did not buy the parts for the high pass of the 10 inch or low pass of the 15 inch so no switch was needed. I just go in where the switch would have allowed me to enter for a biamp setup.
Or do you plan to build your own network?
I plan to build the JBL 3143 but using higher grade caps and inductors and resistors, but only the components aabove the 15 inch driver circuits. It will be as if I used their switch.
I do not plan to change any values. I will be widening the baffle of the 10 inch and horns to the JBL 4343 width. I have a 6 cubic ft cabinet containing the 15 inch which lies on one side. By turning it over I will get the 18 inch spacing of 10 to 15 inch driver centers in the 4343 within a quarter inch.

The stock 3143 has been arranged to provide a smooth transition between all the drivers allowing for their locations on the front baffle.

The network also provides the option of internal passive or external bi amping with a multi pole rotary switch. The switch isolates the woofer from the LF filter elements on the woofer and the HP elements on the mid cone driver. I never installed these or the switch.

It should be noted the voltage drive for the active crossover of the woofer and mid cone in the 4343 has been specifically tailored for these particular drivers and their location on the baffle.

You will NOT get the correct results with other than the designated voltage drive. A simple search will locate these elsewhere on the forums.
I may have a problem here as I am going to use a Marchand 24/octave crossover for the 10 to 15 inch transition. I have gotten two cards set at 300 cps and 2 set at 400 cos to allow me to try different combinations including some overlap. I know JBL did some things like mating 6 with 18 dB/octave slopes. I was trying more for time alignment than necessarily purely flat responce. I miss the sound I used to get from the L300 which covered most of the bass and lower midrange with the 15 inch.

Refer to the 5234/35 Pdf manuals for the active filter RC values. It should be possible for Marchland to provide a customised card. If you get this right the active mode will be subjectively better with the Amber amp on the mid/top end. No question of that. Get it wrong and you will spend a lifetime wondering why it sounds not quite right.

I recommend you build new networks rather than attempt to upgrade the stock 3143. The reason is the bi amp switch will hinder any gains and replacing parts in the stock network will be difficult. You will also need to be very careful with all the phasing on the drivers. Again, I have no switchand never did. TIT has been biamped from the time I bought the 2121 midranges. I currently have the unit biamped at 300 cps with a Marchard X1 set (24/octave). I had tried variations of 6 and 12 db/octave with a heathkit active but the 24 seems better. It is not too bad but I wanted to be able to play a little with overlap to see if I could get it a little flatter and also wanted to upgrade resistors, caps and inductors. I already purchased the caps and resistors I think will be good, but am still looking as to how closely I need to match air core to iron core inductor DC resistance. I know it has to be an external series non inductive of 0.I ohm or less. The inductors come within a tenths of an ohm of one another for the 0.16 and 0.25uF but am off by 0.1 ohm in the 1.0 and 1.7. I only have a meter sreadout to the nearest tenth of an ohm so I cannot measure closer than about the nearest 0.05 ohm. I was trying to learn if that is significant or not. The DCR 's range from about 0.2 ohms to 0.5 ohms among the 4 iron core units from JBL but are about 0.1 ohm lower in the air core ribbon inductors I was considering for the 1.7 and 1uF inductors. Also the replacements are 16 gage which is probably a heavier gage than in the JBL, at least by micrometer diameter measurement on the JBL coil wire. What I don't know is how meaningful that diffeerence is. The ones with the big difference have padding of 2 to 4 ohms to back lower the driver efficiency to match the horns in the circuit, not just the L pads The L-pads for the horn and 10 inch are 16 ohm, again stock JBL replacement parts.

If it were me I would write to Giskard nicely and arrange a pair 2122H to replace the 2121 and get new diamond surround aluminium diaphragms for the compression driver and get on the list for V 3 of the 3145 equivalent network. You stand to gain light years more from this approach than merely putting in better parts.
As a side note, I do have a second set of horn drivers I got a while back. They are the pro designator units with the diamond surrounds, not visually similar to the LE85's. Instead of big and black cylinder shaped magnetic assemblies, they are gray and angular in the magetic region and I think they had the rubber rings on them. I have them in a second set of cabinets with another set of 15's for the TV and used the old longer horns and the L200 JBL crossovers. Should I be swapping out the magnetic compression drivers??? Rightly or wrongly I always thought the design change was for use of the ferrite magnets since alnico became tough to get due to commerce on the nickel from Africa because of so much political turmoil. Not as good, but available and with some design changes could simulate the quality of the alnicos.
I am really trying to avoid changing out the 10 inch drivers. If I do that, it will set me on another project looking for a way to use them somewhere. I am one of those nuts who does not like to see things go to waste.
What is starting to worry me is that using the 24/0ctave instead of the passive network or JBL 12/0ctave active unit may cause a problem. I know they like 12/octave with flipped polarity. Second order seems to be a standard for a lot of pro gear so I thought that is the reason they used it and 24 should be better, but if they have something else in their active circuit that is designed to overcome some impedance peaks in the drivers, using the 24 in standard polarity could be a problem. I don't know how to search the forums easily. I get moved around to a lot of different threads and wind up reading them oll only to find I learned something but not what I needed. I already have my new caps and resistors in hand (and paid for) so I would hate to start over. The caps were not like I bought Mundorf Silver gold or the like (I got Clarity Caps and 1% Dayton 0.1uF polypropllene and some 0.009uF polystyrenes for jumpers) but still I have a couple of hundred bucks in them. I really don't want to start over. I still have another Nak ZX7 and 682 ZX to get fixed as well as a neat McIntosh 240 amp to have repaired. I just retired so I am not broke but have to be a little cautious. Time for new windows this spring too! In addition, my earing in the HF range is lousy at my age. I think it is down about 80 dB above about 8k. Even have trouble hearing vocal sybillants. Stuck an 075 bullet in my center speaker for the TV so I can understand speach.

Now that I bled for a while, can you tell me two things (I know, all tell me to go a different route and I cannot seem to hear them)

1) how close do DCR's have to match if I go to air cores? Should I add some 0.1 ohm series resistors to the air cores to better match them? I cannot get much closer than around 0.05 ohms since I don't have a meter that reads past 0.1 ohm.

2) with a 24/octave between the 10 and 15, is there a phasing/time alignment problem using the stock JBL baffle layout?

As a side note I had considered inserting a second active and using the McIntosh for one or both horns. Just taking this a step at a time for now though.
And Ian, thanks for the help. If you get a chance take a peek at http://sheneskillies.com My other bigger hobby.



Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Bill,

Nice web page.

Is it possible to post a pic of what you have there?

On your questions I dont think its overly critical on the Dcr. I wil sumulate the voltage drives when i get a moment.

The 24 db LR slope active filter might be the problem. Try fliping the phase polarity of the woofer and see what happens. The LR 24 slopes will not give you what they claim in this scenario anyway. This is because of the acoustic shifts on the phase relationships of the driver passbands where they act as a bandpass filter ie (The bandwith of the 2121.) Secondly the low pass second of the 2121 does a 180 degree phase shift.

On the proviso nothing else is wrong adding the 10 inch should do wonders for the sound not make it worse.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have been in contact (voice) with Bill after some delay with time zones.

Sorry I got way laid on booking for the call Bill. .I got dragged out dinner and then to see Bobby (movie). The hour was late at nights end.

I have made some recommendations so Bill can get his 4343 project up to speed. Diy projects don't always go first pop but that is half the fun, you get to figure it out..with some help.

Ian

[Bill Shenefelt]

First a big thank you for a phone call half way round the world from Ian. So far in this project I have purchased Clarity Caps as replacements for the old JBL capacitors. So all know and I don't get accused of ruining a classic, I never had an enclosed set of JBL speakers. These have been assembled driver by driver and part by part from replacement parts I bought from JBL. Cabinets are all home made using high density 3/4 and 1 inch thick cabinet grade flakeboard with 2" by 2" hardwood bracing. Volumes and any porting was done to JBL specifications and I did remeasure theil small parameters for the 136A bass drivers which have thru the years been reconed as well as refoamed. Bass cabinets are currently tuned to 27 cps. The latest foams were from Orange County and were supposed to be JBL foams. Same for the 10 inch midbass 2121 drivers.
Here is where I now stand. I am assembling the passive crossovers using the new Clarity Caps (SA) with no jumpers (Per two different high end shop recommendations- something about not messing with time constannts of different caps by inserting jumpers) Some of the caps do however require parallelling of clarity caps to get the values of the 13.5 and the 4uF to be correct. I am going to purchase a BK meter to measure values for DCR in the inductors and mH in the inductors and capacitance to try to hit the JBL crossover design as best I can. I have a Marchand 3 way active 24dB/octave crossover which first I plan to use only as a 2 way at the 300 cps 15 to 10 inch driver interface (bought the 3 way for later versitility). I also plan to try to bring the 10 inch enclosure volume as close to the 0.5 cubic ft internal volume used by JBL and to somehow widen the baffle to 25 inches as it is on the 4343. Right now it is only about 14 inches wide and that is a problem with the lower output of the 10 inch. I still plan to "free air" mount the horn and slot radiator on a vertical extension of the 10 inch cone baffle.
I do have a 1/3 octave heathkit portable real time analizer with pink noise generator for measuring response. It can be set for 1 dB per led or 3 dB per led on the screen. I can input near or far field speaker output from a calibrated microphone or directly in from two channels which can be a feed of the upper and lower outputs of an active crossover. It will store and can do a comparison by difference of a stored signal reference and a new signal. This means I can compare input from the crossover with output from the drivers.

My first order of business will be to get the system up and running with the new extended baffle, box volume corrections, active 300 cps crossover and duplication of the JBL 3143 network for the 10 inch, horn and slot radiator. The switch and low pass 10 inch components (52uF and 2.8mH ) are not now, and never have been in the system-I did not buy them).
My first concern is as to tolerances for components. What tolerances should I build to for the caps, as well as the inductor mH values and DCR's for the inductors? I would not think the DCR for the 0.25 mH inductor is very significant since it is in series with a 4 ohm, 1% resistor. Right there it has a slop of nearly 0.04 ohms. I am not sure how close the values for the 1.7, 1.0 and 0.16 should be though and if I should correct them using series resistors (assuming I could find them that low in value). All the JBL inductors measure less than 0.6 ohms mesasured by my current fluke meter. The new inductors are air cors and have similar DCR (probably within 0.1 ohms) but I cannot measure more accurately than 0.1 ohm until my new meter arrives.
Second, I can either keep the slot radiator in a vertical array directly above the horn and 10 inch and 15 inch or offset it to one side (presumably the "outside" per some of the information I gathered from the forum.) If I keep the driver to driver center as it is on the JBL baffle, is it better to go vertical or horizontal to the outside? Also were I to add a second active crossover, why is the time alignment to the slot radiator from the horn in need of adjustment more than that of the midrange driver to horn which are obbviously as far apart as the 10 inch to horn? The Marchand can be used to adjust a time offset at each corssover point. To go from 2 way active to 3 way active I would also need to get an old MAc240 tube unit repaired. This is one reason I am persuing only a 2 way active at this point.

Third, There is a ton of good info on the 4343 on this forum but there are so many different forum topics and threads that I have a very difficult time refinding where I saw anything. This is probably why I initially sent private messages to Ian. I did find a great discussion of enclosure and baffle projects but now I don't know where I found it. Also I found a link to a review of different capacitors posted on the site of a gentleman from the Netherlands I think, but now I cannot figure where it was either. I think I have spent more time trying to refind things than I did reading most of the threads from beginning to end and some are pretty long.
Any secrets to storing thread locations. How does one set up the "quick links" thing on the top of the forum page?

In any case hopefully I will be able to re-find this thread to see what responses I may get.
I wish there was a way to email a response to the forum as well as cc the individual without pestering someone with private messages. I prefer private messages, but hate to bother others with them. My email is [email protected]
Again Thanks Ian!

[Robh3606]

Second, I can either keep the slot radiator in a vertical array directly above the horn and 10 inch and 15 inch or offset it to one side

Hello Bill

When I built my 4344's I faced the same decission. If you are going to a 25" wide baffle I would go side by side just like the monitors do. The vertical dispersion on both the 2405 and 2307/08 gets very narrow on the top end of both drivers. That way both drivers can be set at ear level which is something you really need to do with both to get the most HF info out of them. I have my 2405's on the outside but my cabinets are mirror imaged so I can easilly switch things around. Depends on how far apart they are and the toe in. If you mirror image you easilly go either way depending on what you like.

How does one set up the "quick links" thing on the top of the forum page?

I do what you seem to be doing. Read all you can find and then decide on a course of action. I save the threads as HTML I also decided to set-up folders for speakers I planned on building down the road. That way every time a useful tidbit comes up you just drop it into the folder. It has worked well for me so far.

Rob

[Bill Shenefelt]

I have been trying to improve my home built versions of the JBL 4343 speaker system. I have purchased a Marchand 24/0ctave active corssover and new decent caps for the passive crossover. I learned from the forum that I will need to widen the baffle for the 10 inch to simulate the 4343 width to prevent a rolloff of the 10 inch. Initially I had a 0.5 cu ft subenclosure(external though) for the 10 inch. When I saw the response was down at the crossover and roloff started somewhat higher than that, I used a program to see what box it liked (JBL recommended 0.25 to 0.5 cu ft and I initially used 0.5) Based on the program I reduced the box size to about 1/4 cubic ft. That did not fix the problem. I was about to take out my sawsall to increase the box volume when I got a responce from Rob.

Rob sent me a program reference today so I could look at box size versus responce for speakers. Low and behold it is the one I used way back when I reduced the box size to extend the low frequency roll off to the 300 cps crossover point.
Now what to do? I was about to increase the box size but I'm not sure why JBL used it in the 4343. Maybe to adjust the internal volume of the enclosure to better fit the 15 inch speaker desires? Maybe to somehow better match the passive part of the 4343 crossover at the 15 to 10 inch interface? Maybe for some efficiency or transient responce or phase correction? Now I don't know what to do. Any thoughts as to what is really the deal with the 2121 subenclosure size and why JBL chose to use the larger of their recommended range?

[Robh3606]

You can look at just the box response. You have the active or passive crossover slope added to that as well. You may also have mutual coupling issues between the 15 and the 10 through the crossover region. All I can say is if your intention is to build a 4343 using the JBL designed crossover you should be using the 4343 midrange box volume. I would not second quess the engineering behind why they used the larger volume however I would agree it's sure nice to understand why. At this point I would just increase the baffle width as it is basicaly painless and you don't end the day with saw dust on the drapes.

Rob

[Bill Shenefelt]

I am only using the low pass part (1200 down) of the 2121 JBL passive crossover and using the Marchand at the 300 cps so I guess I should let the box alone unless (or until) I later build a brand new box to replace the widened baffle?

You can look at just the box response. You have the active or passive crossover slope added to that as well. You may also have mutual coupling issues between the 15 and the 10 through the crossover region. All I can say is if your intention is to build a 4343 using the JBL designed crossover you should be using the 4343 midrange box volume. I would not second quess the engineering behind why they used the larger volume however I would agree it's sure nice to understand why. At this point I would just increase the baffle width as it is basicaly painless and you don't end the day with saw dust on the drapes.

Rob