250Ti LE14H-1 Replaced by LE14H-3

[varice]

Please excuse me for the necromancy of my old topic…

But, there is an internet meme that if you don’t post a picture of your supposed exploits, then how can anyone believe that it actually happened? So, please see the attached glamour shot pic (or is it just audiophile porno?) of my right channel 250Ti with the -3 driver installed, seductively lit by the early morning sunlight coming through my window…

Unfortunately, the “proper” JBL gaskets I was expecting for the -3 driver turned out to be nothing more than stupid thin cardboard type paper (WTF?). I just reused the original rubber -1 O-rings instead…

But, more concerning to me was that the -3 driver seemed to produce noticeably less bass output than the original -1 driver. So I tried some bass PEQ to try to compensate, but that seemed to only stress the drivers by pushing them past their natural response. I did NOT want to do that. I finally decided that it would probably be better to just add a powered subwoofer to shore up the sub low end… That has turned out to be real challenge though, trying to get it to blend in and work in concert with the 250Ti -3 driver. But I am making progress, and have been enjoying the 250Ti aural bliss in the meantime…

Has anyone else replaced -1 with -3 drivers? If so, what was your experience?

[speakerdave]

First, I would double check to be certain they are not connected out of phase.

[DavidF]

"....But, more concerning to me was that the -3 driver seemed to produce noticeably less bass output than the original -1 driver. So I tried some bass PEQ to try to compensate, but that seemed to only stress the drivers by pushing them past their natural response. I did NOT want to do that. I finally decided that it would probably be better to just add a powered subwoofer to shore up the sub low end… That has turned out to be real challenge though, trying to get it to blend in and work in concert with the 250Ti -3 driver. But I am making progress, and have been enjoying the 250Ti aural bliss in the meantime…
In fact
Has anyone else replaced -1 with -3 drivers? If so, what was your experience?

I have swapped the -1 and -3 woofers frequently, same enclosure, same tuning, same xover. There should be no difference in low end output. It should be difficult to discern any difference in the woofer types, in fact, in the way you are using them. Two things to check that can really diminish bass output are air leaks in the enclosure and out-of-phase woofers, as mentioned above.

[Odd]

LE14H-1 is negative. LE14H-3 is positive. Right ?

[DavidF]

LE14H-1 is negative. LE14H-3 is positive. Right ?

Both sets of drivers I had were the same as to polarity.

[hlaari]

JBL Le14H-3 positive on red + moves cone in towards magnet
JBL Le14H-1 positive on black - gives forward cone motion

so forward cone motion for both woofers is black - terminal
this info are in the (transducer information)

[varice]

First, I would double check to be certain they are not connected out of phase.

OH GOOD F*CKING GRIEF!!!! I absolutely did NOT connect the -3 drivers out of phase… I’m not that stupid… and it would have obviously produced much less bass response than what I think that I perceive.

There are two more likely possibilities (probably a combination of both):

1. Using the original old O-rings did not provide a good enough seal.
2. The -1 and -3 drivers are in fact NOT exactly the same acoustically.

About #2: IIRC, The specs for the -3 indicate slightly less output than the -1. The rubber surround of the -3, although it is more durable than the -1 (YEAH!) is apparently a bit stiffer, which may cause a bit less cone excursion, resulting in less acoustic output. Also, the -3 cone assembly is a bit more forward in the driver assembly than the -1, by maybe about ¼ inch, which would slightly increase the total volume of the woofer enclosure. Would that be enough to change the very low end response of my 250Ti loudspeakers?

In any case, the roll off of the very low end of the ported 250Ti’s, IMO has always made them sound a bit too weak in the very low bass frequency range. Apparently, JBL also realized this and offered a subwoofer system to compensate. I have used a PEQ specifically made for bass equalization to try to augment the deep bass response, but that PEQ is designed specifically for sealed acoustic suspension systems (not ported systems). The best answer therefore was to add a subwoofer…

[rdgrimes]

About #2: IIRC, The specs for the -3 indicate slightly less output than the -1. The rubber surround of the -3, although it is more durable than the -1 (YEAH!) is apparently a bit stiffer, which may cause a bit less cone excursion, resulting in less acoustic output.

That would be a case where the application of many WATTS could be of some use.

[edgewound]

OH GOOD F*CKING GRIEF!!!! I absolutely did NOT connect the -3 drivers out of phase… I’m not that stupid… and it would have obviously produced much less bass response than what I think that I perceive.

There are two more likely possibilities (probably a combination of both):

1. Using the original old O-rings did not provide a good enough seal.
2. The -1 and -3 drivers are in fact NOT exactly the same acoustically.

About #2: IIRC, The specs for the -3 indicate slightly less output than the -1. The rubber surround of the -3, although it is more durable than the -1 (YEAH!) is apparently a bit stiffer, which may cause a bit less cone excursion, resulting in less acoustic output. Also, the -3 cone assembly is a bit more forward in the driver assembly than the -1, by maybe about ¼ inch, which would slightly increase the total volume of the woofer enclosure. Would that be enough to change the very low end response of my 250Ti loudspeakers?

In any case, the roll off of the very low end of the ported 250Ti’s, IMO has always made them sound a bit too weak in the very low bass frequency range. Apparently, JBL also realized this and offered a subwoofer system to compensate. I have used a PEQ specifically made for bass equalization to try to augment the deep bass response, but that PEQ is designed specifically for sealed acoustic suspension systems (not ported systems). The best answer therefore was to add a subwoofer…

First of all, SpeakerDave is a very well respected, longtime member of this forum. He's just trying to help, as most here do, so your outbursts are quite a bit out of line.

Secondly, there is a simple remedy for your lack of bass output. The LE14H-3 is reported to have a bit more sensitivity due to the lighter moving mass of ~8 grams.

So...it's unusual for yours to have less output when Greg Timbers says it will be slight louder...by about 1-2dB.

So....that leaves one last variable if the driver is in new condition. It needs time to break-in. Break-in time requires about 40-50 hours of listening at moderate to loudish volume levels to exercise the suspension to get it limber enough to get to its Fs. Be patient, Grashoppah.

[jblnut]

LOL...you're gonna make friends with the neighbors and rattle anything loose that's not tied down before you 'stress' that LE14-H3 any.

I have two sets of LE14-H1's for my 250's and one does produce less output than the other. I haven't stressed out much about it and I actually have the lower-output set in my system now.

I am not sure what you're hearing (or what you are expecting) but lots of things can cause the 250 to seem like it doesn't have a lot of bass. Room nodes and placement are a big one here, as is the amp you are using. And they are so flat and accurate down there that you really have to be listening to something well recorded before you hear what's possible. Having a lot of power helps too :-). They roll off fast below 30hz though and I'd recommend a sub for the lowest of the lows. It took me 10 years to finally see the light there, but I did get the message at long last.

Yelling at well respected members who have been here for over a decade doesn't help, so calm down and listen to what people are telling you...

jblnut

[brutal]

OH GOOD F*CKING GRIEF!!!! I absolutely did NOT connect the -3 drivers out of phase… I’m not that stupid… and it would have obviously produced much less bass response than what I think that I perceive.

There are two more likely possibilities (probably a combination of both):

1. Using the original old O-rings did not provide a good enough seal.
2. The -1 and -3 drivers are in fact NOT exactly the same acoustically.

About #2: IIRC, The specs for the -3 indicate slightly less output than the -1. The rubber surround of the -3, although it is more durable than the -1 (YEAH!) is apparently a bit stiffer, which may cause a bit less cone excursion, resulting in less acoustic output. Also, the -3 cone assembly is a bit more forward in the driver assembly than the -1, by maybe about ¼ inch, which would slightly increase the total volume of the woofer enclosure. Would that be enough to change the very low end response of my 250Ti loudspeakers?

In any case, the roll off of the very low end of the ported 250Ti’s, IMO has always made them sound a bit too weak in the very low bass frequency range. Apparently, JBL also realized this and offered a subwoofer system to compensate. I have used a PEQ specifically made for bass equalization to try to augment the deep bass response, but that PEQ is designed specifically for sealed acoustic suspension systems (not ported systems). The best answer therefore was to add a subwoofer…

[varice]

...First of all, SpeakerDave is a very well respected, longtime member of this forum. He's just trying to help, as most here do, so your outbursts are quite a bit out of line...

In my post on 20MAY2017, I did NOT ask for any “help”, did I? The so called “help” offered was unsolicited, and in my opinion, insulting because it was based on the incorrect assumption that I am ignorant about how to connect drivers in proper phase, and would not be able to realize the mistake before foolishly posting here to complain… In my opinion, people that offer this kind of unsolicited "help" have lost a lot of respect that I would have for them....

[varice]

...LOL...you're gonna make friends with the neighbors and rattle anything loose that's not tied down before you 'stress' that LE14-H3 any...

Sorry if I wasn't clear... The stress I mentioned about avoiding was only trying to push the -3 drivers to produce output frequencies BELOW the natural roll off of the drivers in the 250Ti enclosure. It is common knowledge that trying to do this in ported speaker systems can damage the drivers, do you disagree?

As far as rattling things, my subwoofer rattles things all too well, and even makes things not nailed down dance around!

...They roll off fast below 30hz though and I'd recommend a sub for the lowest of the lows. It took me 10 years to finally see the light there, but I did get the message at long last...

This was what I was referring to, and the reason that I mentioned getting a powered subwoofer...

...Yelling at well respected members who have been here for over a decade doesn't help, so calm down and listen to what people are telling you...

Please see my previous post about this.

I'm willing to make a deal... If posters don't insult my intelligence, I won't be insulted... How about that?

[rdgrimes]

I'm willing to make a deal... If posters don't insult my intelligence, I won't be insulted... How about that?

Having just read this exchange, I feel compelled to point out that the only person being "insulting" here is you.

[varice]

Having just read this exchange, I feel compelled to point out that the only person being "insulting" here is you.

So, please point out where I have insulted anyone posting here.