Does wire "get old" ?

[SEAWOLF97]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?

I opened up an OHM today and stripped it all apart. The factory wire was 18 or 20 ga (not marked) , but in good condition. Pulled it all out and replaced with 12ga monster from binding posts to drivers (there is no xover). Of course the wiring runs, connectors, etc were not ready for this upgrade, so it took a while.

Finished up the one speaker and will do the other mañana.

Put power to them and the one with replaced wiring now sounds cleaner (for lack of better word). I don't want to use "the veil has been lifted" analogy. BUT, I did have to reduce treble tone control.

So the question is...did the improvement come from newer wire or better than factory installed wire ? (the monster 12 ga. is prolly 10 y.o. and the factory wire at least 30 y.o.)

[jim campbell]

ive always wondered about the wisdom of expensive cables on the other side of a two dollar fuse too!!!!!!!!

[epoch5]

I think it only gets old with age.

[John]

I vote for the Better or different wire as the cause!!!

[X_X]

Well, oxygen free copper (OFC) will not oxidoze over time like regular copper wire will. Oxidation will limit flow somewhat. Some swear it corrupts the signal...I don't know about that. So, YES, some wire does get old.

Parts of the signal certainly do pass through cheap resistor leads, fuses, and various changes in wire guage and quality. You have to think of the entire run- summed. Anywhere there exists a chance to increase the flow in terms of quality wire- it can offset some of those limiting factors somewhat. I've experienced significant changes- even with wire of the same price (cheap!). I never spend more than $5USD a meter on anything.

Jeff at Sonic Craft says it another way:

One of the most significant discoveries I made several years ago when designing speakers was that regardless of response curves, the use of certain crossover components, connections, and wire made a vast improvement over the main stream parts currently available. The improvements were independent of the "standard methods" of quantifying quality, but special component construction/design reproduced better sound. Some of these qualities are difficult or impossible to quantify at this time. This type of scenario has given rise to convictions such as: "For those who have experienced it, no explanation is necessary.....for those who have not, none is possible". The formally educated side of me is disturbed by this. None the less, I hear what I hear. Case in point, the speaker that measures great, but sounds mediocre at best. You may know the story, but how about the solution? Simple, all the right variables are not being measured, or identified for that matter. Again, all quality has yet to be quantified.

Nate.

[scott fitlin]

Like X X states, wire especially copper wire, oxidizes, and as it oxidizes its resistance changes, slightly. If the oxidation becomes bad enough it could compromise signal flow, possibly at different frequencies, Im not sure.

But, they say, and have been saying for eons, clean your connections once a year, and many people swear after they clean their connections, and connectors, they hear a difference.

On another type of wire application, I had to replace a run from the circuit breaker to the switch pedal of one of my bumper cars this winter. My cars are 34 years old, and the wire I replaced was about 25yrs old. Anyway, I ordered 8ga stranded DC power cable from an electrical supply, did the work, and when I tested the car out, I thought it was running faster. Usually, clutch and subsequent clutch adjustment and the ride operating voltage determines speed and torque. A week later, we were testing and running cars, and one of my guys, who wasnt here when I rewired the car rode it, and said number 12 seemed faster. All I had done was replace a 4, maybe 5 ft run from the breaker to the cars pedal switch. So, maybe wire does get old and resistance does build up enough over years to impede current flow.

Could be, as I said, I replaced a power carrying cable on a bumper car, and with no other adjustments, or motor work, I thought the car moved faster.

[coherent_guy]

Does wire get old?

An excellent question with many implications if the answer is yes. Such as, does the wire in everything from transformers, inductors (chokes), wire wound resistors, loudspeaker voice coils, or even the leads to resistors, caps, etc. get old? Why stop with wire, only one shape of copper we use, what about printed circuit board traces or the contacts of various connectors, plugs, sockets, etc. What does "get old" mean in particular?

Considering copper wire, two things come immediately to mind regarding degradation. One being chemical corrosion, the other physical damage caused by stresses applied to the wire. Uninsulated copper wire will oxidize over time when exposed to air. Insulated copper wire that is well sealed seems to be protected from this, I imagine we've all seen nice shiny copper when insulation is removed from old wire. Cutting a wire always reveals a shiny interior in my experience. So it seems wire does not corrode internally at least over the span of decades. So called oxygen free copper is not 100% free of oxygen, but it's oxygen content is reduced compared to ordinary wire. Regardless, it does not seem to oxidize from the inside, or at least anywhere near as quickly as the surface of copper does when exposed to air.

A wire that is bent or moved many times is stressed and weakened. Whether this can be noticed by measurements of, say, resistance, is unknown to me. The same is true for oxidized copper, does it exhibit an increase in resistance?

The wire inside your Ohms is not that old, what, about 25 to 30 years? I suspect the difference you heard is due to the increase in wire gauge and/or the new or cleaned contact surfaces. It always surprises me to find the skinny wire inside speakers like you found, probably used to save money and is deemed to be "good enough".

If wire does naturally age and deteriorate, the implications for vintage equipment is not good. Think about the transformers in tube amps and VC's in those vintage JBLs and Altecs. Are they doomed if this happens?

So this long-winded, reply comes to no absolute conclusion. I would say that corroded wire is degraded compared to non-corroded wire. If you get shiny clean copper when stripping insulation off a wire, it is likely just fine regardless of age. I've read that corrosion of silver wire doesn't matter, since oxidized silver (silver oxide) is a good conductor of electricity. As for aluminum, who knows? I'd be interested to hear what does change in copper wire if it does get old. I've never seen this question addressed before anywhere, it is a good one.

[Zilch]

Copper does not oxidize.

It "Patinates."

www.copper.org

[SEAWOLF97]

What does "get old" mean in particular? The same is true for oxidized copper, does it exhibit an increase in resistance?If wire does naturally age and deteriorate, the implications for vintage equipment is not good. Think about the transformers in tube amps and VC's in those vintage JBLs and Altecs. Are they doomed if this happens?

Hi CG-

I edited down your response a bit. I think that the general question "get old" probably refers to increased resistance although other parameters could be affected. The wire that I pulled out really looked just fine. Its hard to believe that on expensive speakers, they would skimp over the designers specs to save a dollar or so (I mean we are only talking about 8 feet of wire here). Although JBL really skimped on the binding posts in the 1970's.

This kinda raises a bigger question on vintage speakers. Would they all benefit from upgraded internal wire ?

Since I only did 1 today, I can set the system to MONO and get between them and hear a clear difference.

So do you need to upgrade only as far as the xover ? or all the way to the driver ?

What parameter would I measure to find out what is making the difference ? resistance ? then what if those readings are nearly the same ?

yea, I know , too many dumb questions.

[Robh3606]

How often does the power company change the lines in the grid or the service to your house?? If there was any significant loss of conductivity and changes in resistance you would see it there.

They have thousands miles of copper wire exposed to the elements for decades at a time. I would worry more about the actual connection points oxidizing in audio applications. The wire itself, used indoors, in a cabinet, encapsulated in insulation???? I just don't see an issue there.

Rob

[UreiCollector]

perhaps it is our ears getting old? I'll be quiet now. My ears are happy.

[Mr. Widget]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?

Damn! look at these bottlenecks... well, I guess these tiny leads will have to be replaced.


Widget

[jim3860]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?

So the question is...did the improvement come from newer wire or better than factory installed wire ? (the monster 12 ga. is prolly 10 y.o. and the factory wire at least 30 y.o.)

That is an interesting question. I had the same thought a while back myself. I first thought about it after i had bought a pair of 781 series mission bookshelf speakers.

I of course needed to know what the insides looked like, so I took the drivers out and peered inside. Well inside was 12 gauge wiring going from the crossovers to the woofer and tweeter. I was suitably impressed and thought to myself hmmm......... if mission thoought that there speakers needed 12 gauge wiring my jbl L100s needed it too.

So I dutifully rewired all the wires that i could spot with 12 gauge. What a pain in the ass it was lol. Then I listened to it rewired versus the stock one and there was no doubt in my mind that the newly rewired one sounded better. so i did both of them that way.

Now as to whether the wire was old enough to need it or not I dont know. personally I think what took place is that the wiring that jbl put in there to begin with was cheap crap. I dont think it would have made any difference if i had rewired with 18 gauge, because the runs are so short between the crossovers and drivers. But either way it sounded better to me regardless of the reason why. REGARDS JIM

[Zilch]

Oh NO!!

Y'all are DESTROYING that "Vintage JBL SOUND!!"

[You're saving that old JBL wire so you can restore them to their original state, right? ]

[spwal]

When I put Zilch miracle wire in my Hereseys, I did an interesting test i played a stock one next to the one I had just finished upgrading. there was a clear difference in clarity between the two. (paul coats also used overkill speakerwire as my hookup wire on my 19s)

the klipsch crosssovers are fun to work with for a chump like myself, because everything is labeled and almost all of it is screw down

I am pretty out of cash at the moment, but ultimatly i want to run some nice speaker wire directly from the crossover and remove those cheezy binding posts all together.

the zilch upgrade combined with a crites capacitor upgrade was no small upgrade.

sea-- did you use some sort of deoxidizer on your contact points while you were in there?