Quality Capacitors in Low Pass filter Below 250Hz??

[soundboy]

Ok, I don't mean to be redundant about my love affair with Claritycaps....but....I had replaced all of the solens in a 3 way Dynaudio system in just the mid and tweeter sections. It was very spendy, about $200 worth of SA and PX series. The system consists of a 24W100 10" woofer, 17WLQ Esotec 7" mid, and a Esotec D260 tweeter, designed on LEAP about 10 years ago(crossovers acoustic at 250hz and 2500hz)....for the JBL nuts, I do have a 2245H and BX63A for the lowest end (modified with Mundorf silver/oils, Auricaps, etc).

Anyway, I had a 180uf cap in the 250hz low pass to the woofer. It was a parallel cap between two Erse inductors. Very large, for sure, and I had 80uf and 100uf solens in there. So, I bit the bullet, and replaced them with 6 each of the 30uf PX series claritycaps....damn, what an ear opener. Complete perfect blend now with the rest of the system. The bass (and guitar, vocals, etc, etc) is transparent, tight, punchy, natural....right. Spent over $125.00 just on the low end caps. It was worth every penny. Amazing difference in every way. I am aware of those who would just biamp, and forget it....but nothing is more focused or as good a blend as a LEAP designed passive....and even the best active crossovers (I have Ashly's in my live rig) have IC's, mylar caps, high and low filters, another power supply, etc, etc....which I feel add more coloration and haze than a good passive setup. Especially if the dcr of your coils is taken in to account in your box design and tuning.

If anybody wants to know, yes, it is worth it to replace ALL of the caps in a 3 way system with similar caps for a good blend, and nothing is more affordable at anywhere near the performance of the claritycap. Go humblehomemadehifi.com and check out a neat website with info, and go to e-speakers.com for pricing and ordering. Hope this all helps anyone that is contemplating what I have done. The SA series is more transparent, but the PX series is damn close, and less money for the really big values. And, yes, these caps are HUGE.

The photo is the mid and tweeter sections only, but you can see the relative size of these caps. My camera is a dinosaur, as you can see. Since the signal goes through dozens of feet of inductor wire, including a tiny voicecoil wire, I don't use huge monster wire as I once did for connecting components and drivers. 16 or 18 guage solid core does it just fine (bastardized from some audioquest speaker cable), and is easier to work with and do a neat job. 12 guage wire for a 3" or 6" length doesn't seem to be worth the audible effort....for me, anyway.

All of my systems have claritycaps now. 4406's, 4301B's, 4208's, and 7" Dynadio 2 way surround speakers as well. These caps transformed all of these already decent systems by an amazing margin.

I might also mention that I finally got rid of all of the cheap wire wound resistors, as well. The mills resistors I got from parts express are incredible in comparison. Pure, smooth, with way less hash and grit. At $3.85 each, it is a cheap improvement.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Bloody Brilliant Mate.

Took some balls to post that around here.

Ian

[duaneage]

Why did you mount the inductors that way? It causes mutual inductance and while I'm not sure about hearing the difference with the caps, you WILL have cross modulation with inductors mounted so close in the same direction..

[soundboy]

You're right, there isn't any audible difference, because 25 years ago I measured interference between coils with a buddy, on a very sensitive inductance meter....and the only way we could get the values to change was to put metal in the interior of the coils.....laying them on top of each other, or side by side varied things little (a few micro henries), as well...I also tend to lay components out according to the schematic, for easier hookup. But, now that you mention it, it must be the mutual inductance causing the increase in transparency, punch, naturalness and detail....so keep your coils a foot apart, and use electrolytics on all your bass speakers....you'll certainly save a lot of money...but you'll never know what you're missing

But seriously, the coils you are referring to in the picture, are for the midrange section (I mentioned this in the post). The two large coils in the bass section that the post is talking about (not pictured) are about 4 inches apart....same as before switching the caps out.

[duaneage]

Published testing would say otherwise, Most manufacturers avoid mounting them that way. They're your speakers, do what you wish with them. I'll just mind my own business.

If I paid hundreds of dollars for capacitors I would be convinced they made a difference, that's for sure. Of course if greater punch is what you want then throw a book in each enclosure and tune the ducts to a higher frequency, works for sure.

Great results can be had with room treatments and careful placement. The boundries and surfaces of a room affect the sound more than a 200.00 capacitor.

[Robh3606]

You're right, there isn't any audible difference, because 25 years ago I measured interference between coils with a buddy, on a very sensitive inductance meter....and the only way we could get the values to change was to put metal in the interior of the coils.....laying them on top of each other, or side by side varied things little (a few micro henries), as well...I also tend to lay components out according to the schematic, for easier hookup.

You completely missed the important point of his post. He's not talking mutual coupling changing inductance values, he's talking about coupling between the coils magnetic fields where one coil modulates the the signal in the other coil. Happens all the time in poorly layed out boards with inductors with close spacing and not turned 90 degree's to minimize it.

Rob

[soundboy]

This is my last post on this board. I am sure there is a modulation of small amounts if coils are too close. I don't think that was in any way the purpose of my thread, or post. I guess JBL didn't think it that big of a deal in all of the boards I have seen with coils side to side. Now, I am being called a liar because the only reason I can hear a difference, is because I spent hundreds of dollars. What is up with people on here? Have you tried anything other than stock mylars or electrolytics? Have you played music live, or run sound live, or built and designed speakers for 30 years? I don't take any of this personal at all....it is just a waste of time to post anything. I never said it was the best there is, or the only way, or the only poly caps to use....but if someone can't hear the difference between cheap mylar/electrolytic caps, and decent poly ones, and can only come up with a criticism of two coils that are only an inch apart....well, I have kids to raise and a life.

[Zilch]

I don't take any of this personal at all....

Yeah, you do.

Get over it.

We enjoy your posts here....

[oldschool]

I'm firming up the cabinets on a pair of s3811s now, and going to replace the caps with clairty caps.The sa on the mids and hf,px on the woffer.

[taro]

I think better caps make a big improvement, the better the source, the more.
This in the whole range.
In my really mint pair of L96 I rebuild the network in 2 steps. First changed to 3113b type, which was an improvement. Then 2 month later changed all caps to Mundorf types (all bypassed). This was an even more improvement.
From top to bottom very homogen, clear and airy .

regards taro

ps. so it looks not pro it works

[L100t Owner]

I'm firming up the cabinets on a pair of s3811s now, and going to replace the caps with clairty caps.The sa on the mids and hf,px on the woffer.

I was going to rebuild a pair of smaller B&W's using either Solens or Sonicaps. These options are $40 or $160 respectively. The Clarity Caps look to be a much better option for way less (about $60 for PX and $110 for SA).

Link to Tony Gee's site:

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

The Clarity caps rate higher than either for less.

[L100t Owner]

Soundboy,

Thanks for the tip. I ordered the PX series last night for my B&W's. I would have ordered the SA series but I was not sure that they would fit in my speakers because B&W's use separate chambers for the crosovers. The PX rate as well as the Sonicaps but ware way less. $60 for caps for $600 speakers make sense. When my N801's need new caps I will go all out.

Thanks,

Chris

[Joe Alesi]

Hello Soundboy,

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar- did I miss something. Sure the cap upgrades are great- no one will argue that improving the capacitors isn't a positive step. There are certainly good technical reasons to expect capacitors to differ in performance, just as there are for inductors.

The concerns raised about coupling between the two coils is not an insignifcant point. If the coils are aligned and close there will be signal coupling from one to the other- I suppose you could call it a transformer with an air core with poor coupling. This is a measurable effect- Put a signal into one coil and monitor the signal on the other coil using an oscilloscope. You will see, depending on the orientation and spacing of the coils a facsimile of the signal on the unpowered coil. Many things in audio are subject to opinion and debate- this one is not- It is demonstrable on an oscilloscope as a signal that should not be there.

Be happy, dont leave- we are all friends here.

[L100t Owner]

Hello Soundboy,

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar- did I miss something. Sure the cap upgrades are great- no one will argue that improving the capacitors isn't a positive step. There are certainly good technical reasons to expect capacitors to differ in performance, just as there are for inductors.

The concerns raised about coupling between the two coils is not an insignifcant point. If the coils are aligned and close there will be signal coupling from one to the other- I suppose you could call it a transformer with an air core with poor coupling. This is a measurable effect- Put a signal into one coil and monitor the signal on the other coil using an oscilloscope. You will see, depending on the orientation and spacing of the coils a facsimile of the signal on the unpowered coil. Many things in audio are subject to opinion and debate- this one is not- It is demonstrable on an oscilloscope as a signal that should not be there.

Be happy, dont leave- we are all friends here.

Agreed. It looks like just the small inductor can be turned 90 degrees to avoid coupling problems (if the second board is mounted away from teh first board). I have seen spacers used in more severe situations.

In any event, I am glad to hear about these caps at such a reasonable price. The PX are just a little more expensive than Solen fast caps.

[Paul C.]

I didn't read Duane's post as a putdown of Soundboy's gear, but rather as a suggestion on something that could be easily improved.

Possibly turning one of the coils might unmask even more clarity in the system. Who knows?

Meanwhile, here is some reading on intermodulation between crossover caps, aka "crosstalk".

http://www.audioholics.com/education...osstalk-basics

Here you are... pictures, measurements, some solid experimentation here and some demonstrable results. This is exactly what Duane was talking about.

I would hope Soundboy would not even take it as "constructive criticizm" of any sort, but rather, a suggestion for further improvement of his system.

It is quite easy to lose the nuances in the written word, when you can't see facial expressions and voice inflections. Things can sound harsh when there is really no intent of that at all.