Why are you not baffled?
Why are you not baffled?
This is just not a very positive thread. Storm bought some new speakers and has made statements that many find contradictory with his earlier, myself included, however looking back on it, I probably made similar claims and discoveries 30 years ago early on in my audio infancy. Can we just let it alone. Some of the Altec contingent think that Altec are under priced at any price and others are giving Storm grief because he may have paid too much... we get it.... do we need to continue to hammer on the guy?
Storm, I know you have stated in the past that you have little respect for measurements and graphs, however, if you would like to know what the EV tweeter mod has actually done for your speakers, we can get a pretty good idea of the affects by looking at the photos. It appears that the tweeter has been added in series with the Altec HF and with a single 4uF cap. The single cap on the T-35 would translate to a gentle 6dB per octave slope at ~2.5KHz. If there is in fact a resistor used to pad down the EV tweeter hidden by the tweeter magnet, the crossover frequency would be raised. What this means is that the EV tweeter and the Altec HF driver are both covering the range above this frequency, and quite a bit below since the gentle slope takes several octaves to get the level down far enough to subjectively and objectively remove it audibly. From this plot, we can see that the EV T-35 has little output below 3KHz. (This plot is of a T-35 and was posted on a different thread. This plot is reported to be representative of the T-35 after measuring a large group of the drivers.)
What all this means is that by adding the EV tweeter there will be comb filtering effects and increased output somewhere above the 3-5Hz region up to the top end of the T-35's upper limit. This will subjectively add detail and a bit of brightness. Any affects on lowering perceived distortion or listener fatigue would be psycho-acoustic.
Widget
Poor Storm. He keeps coming back for more and now I'll join him for some punishment. I was going to keep my mouth shut but I've read so many comments I don't entirely agree with that I can't.
I did not really like my Flamencos until I added EV T-350 tweeters. There were NO real highs and the mids were too strong and somewhat garbled sounding to me. Kind of sounded like the sound waves were bouncing around in the horn throat or in the 806A driver itself. Yet overall the Flamencos sounded like they had potential.
The tweeters were tied in right off the amp with a simple cap for an xover at around 8KHZ at 6db/octave. The result was a high frequency range that needed to be cut back. I much prefer that over not enough because it's easier to deal with. In my room a series 1 ohm resistor did the trick but 2 ohms was better for some people that listened.
Then I found that I had to cut back on the 806A level controls for a better overall balance.
Perfection it wasn't but I enjoyed the Flamencos that way for 5 years.
When I snagged a pair of Model 19's I assumed they would be the same and I would need the tweeters. That was the case even after the 802G's went to GPA for new diaphrams and remag. Yes the xover caps were replaced too and not with soft sounding new ones.
But with the 19's I have a 12/octave xover on the T-350's and the Model 19 HF controls are set at about 1/4 rotation. The MF controls are at the lower end of the "optimal" setting range. Not ideal but I am still experimenting with different xover configurations to get it right for me.
Without the added tweeters, having the Model 19 HF controls at the end or just above the "optimal" setting range and the MF controls at mid optimal settings, I hear that garbled sound and there is little of what I would call "real highs." They are in the program source and can be heard with efficient 3 way speaker systems.
The CBS Lab report on the Model 19's shows a rather steady drop of the 802G's after 11 or 12KHZ. And that driver is supposed to have had improved highs over the 806A? So how far out does an 806A really go? Is it better than about 8db down at 13KHZ?
I have yet to see test reports that show + - figures for an 806A or 802G.
Altec claimed that the 806A and 802G's went out to 20KHZ but without the + - figures that means little to me.
My T-350's were tested about 6 years ago and they dropped quickly after 14KHZ. But is that not better than the extension of the Altec drivers and in particular the 806A's that don't have the comp circuit that the 19 xover has?
I like the higher frequencies coming from the T-350's more than I like them coming from the 806A's/802G's plus the highs are flatter out to at least 14KHZ and that does help in hearing detail that is present in the program source that would otherwise be missed or obscured without the added tweeters.
In Storms case the T-35's are 16 ohm so they are already "padded" because he is using an SS amp and the rest of the drivers are 8 ohm right?
In theory there is way too much overlap because his T-35's are crossed over at 6db/octave and the 806A's are running full out, but what if the 806A level controls aren't where they would need to be without the added tweeters and if what I say about the "automatic padding" is correct?
I think his Valencias really do sound better to him with the added tweeters.
I don't expect everyone to agree but what's wrong with liking a more extended frequency response even if it might make for some response bumps here and there that don't sound bad to the person that needs to be happy with what they hear?
OK Tom B. I know how you and at least one other person feels about the T-35 but they can be decent until you hear a T-350.
The cringe from the K-Horn T-35 can be improved by changing the front to back position of the tweeters to make them blend better.
On both my Flamencos and the 19's the tweeters sound better when they are over the magnet structures of the 806/802's so that means sitting them on top of the cabinets and all the way to the rear.
Zilch and I have been round and round on this one... by using network gymnastics he has been padding down the mids and highs on his two-ways much as it is done in the Model 19 and the JBL 4430/35s. With the JBL titanium drivers and even the older aluminum LE85 you can get extension out to the 20Khz region, but to the discerning listener, it still doesn't sound as good as a proper tweeter. I am speculating that the problems I hear with this are due to the raised power level required to drive the compression drivers once you’ve padded them down ~10dB or so in their midband. I think the mass break point related distortion from running them at these higher levels is simply too audible. Moving up to a Beryllium driver helps, but to my ears, they are still not quite as nice sounding up top as a dedicated tweeter. (The unobtainable JBL 475 notwithstanding.) I intend to do some tests with some TAD 2" diaphragm Be drivers when my schedule permits, but all of my experiments with TAD's 4" drivers and JBL's 3" drivers... even though they look good on paper, I haven't been entirely pleased with their UHF performance.Originally Posted by DaveV
FWIW: The EV T-350 is a very nice tweeter... with it's phenolic diaphragm, it may not reach the upper limits of audibility, but what it does do is quite nice.
Widget
Yes, all others are 8 ohms.
Zilch - what is your opinion? Do I need to do anything to them?
Thank you for everyones opinion, it has been greatly appreciated.
-Storm.
Mr. W
do you have any theories why the EV tweet was never mentioned in the ebay auc ? Maybe a flipper that didnt realize the addition since he plagerized the text anyway ?
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
I bought these because of the rare original foam and the fact I wanted them.
How do you know it is origanal???
The seller was actually very nice. We met in a parking lot to do the transaction.
I would think if he was nice he would of invited you to his home to listen to them and pay him your hard cash and help you load them up???
Hi, Storm.
Until someone posts response curves for Valencias, or I get access to a pair here to measure myself, I don't much know what you're listening to.
From what little I know about VOTT and M19, however, I surmise that the "In your face" sound you like about them is rising midrange. You found M19, which are flatter and more accurate by design, too "refined." The same is likely true of the JBLs you heard at Jack's house.
There's nothing wrong with that; plenty of forum members enjoy similar sonic character in their vintage JBL systems. I rib them for their "taste" favoring inaccurate and artificial sound, is all. Everyone's taste is different. To some, mine is "dry" and "colorless." I don't disagree; it's intentionally so, and can be breathtaking in other ways.
The addition of those tweeters in your Valencias has likely extended their "forward" sound further into higher frequencies. I also understand how you might like that better than your originals. I relate this to JBL's L200B model, since your new tweeters do not add much in the way of very high frequency. They were JBL's most extreme implementation of "Quintessential Rock 'n' Roll."
I'm not about to talk you out of that, Storm, or advise you otherwise, or redesign your system according to different tastes. As Mr. Widget says, you're on a journey of audio discovery here, and it's YOUR trip....
Zilch -
If I sell the 846U's to California, I am willing to drive them over. In that case, I could stop by your place so you can do the measurements and that way you can have those for future threads.
I will post the 846Us on Audiogon and eBay within a week.
Thank you for all of your help.
So, essentially from what you see here - there is nothing wrong with having tweeters?
-Storm.
Oh Storm...
Widget
No theres nothing wrong with having the tweeters.
You like em, so enjoy them.
I like my steak med rare, how do you like yours? And if you like different than me, who is right? Neither!
scottyj
Funny, that is exactly how I like my steak. Yummy.
I like my steak med rare, how do you like yours? And if you like different than me, who is right? Neither!
Medium Rare, all the time.
-Storm
No, Storm, nothing wrong.
You just enjoy them.
We're along for the ride, is all....
Storm,
If I had any idea adding a pair of EV T-35's to an Altec 846 would light your fire, I would have given you a pair of them when you were at my house. I have a pair that were built for Speakerlab and labeled as HT-3500, 8 Ohms. The pair in a set of EV cabinets in my lab are EV T-35's, 16 Ohms, to the best of my memory. You can have either pair for the freight to get them to Glendale, if you want them. I may even have the necessary non-polar electrolytics to cross them over. Let me know.
I am amazed that they add that much effect to the Valencias, because they aren't much of a tweeter at all, but if they do it for you, more power to you. Maybe you should keep the 846U's for a little longer and try several different tweeters in them. Part of the learning process is trial and error on your own.
Jack
I'll build you a pair of crossovers to try with your tweeters, Storm. I think I have the parts here. They'll be JBL 3105 (N7000) equivalents, and may smooth the response out for you a bit.
[Don't forget to rotate your new woofers, dude....
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