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  1. #16
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Deqx

    I use a pair of these to control my Westlake HR1 4-ways. As Widget says, for a digital source, I have not heard anything better.

    I have heard there are some very reasonably priced mods that can be done to improve the analog section. That being said its sounds damned good the way it is.

    Good luck in whatever direction you go.

    Ken

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    In the old days (early '70's), I used a Pioneer SF-700 in my triamped PA system, but the SF-850s are also nice. And these predate digital. These can still be found for ~$300.



    Very cool.

  3. #18
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    The Pioneers were good, all discrete circuitry, Im told.
    scottyj

  4. #19
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    Many thanks for the help. I am ordering a DEQX on the basis that if it's good enough for Widget and Ken's Westlakes I am unlikely to be disappointed. I've used Tact before so should be able to get my head around it.

    And if I find that it is the audio equivalent of a cold lifeless turkey, I will always have a couple of kind and generous Americans to lay the blame on

    I recently heard a pair of the big Westlakes in Japan, passively driven from a pair of large Boulder monoblocks. They left a profound impression .

    Widget, do you see advantages to the Alesis HD recorder over the Tascam or software routes?

  5. #20
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    The DEQX is supposed to be the best, and I assume if you have been speaking to Widget your aware you need a laptop, and software to program and setup the DEQX.

    http://www.deqx.com/kit.html
    scottyj

  6. #21
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    Yes thanks Scott,

    As I mentioned I used the Tact RCS gear for a couple of years so know my way around something similar - so that will be a start.

    I have to say I'm a little sceptical based on my Tact experience - which I found produced technically impressive but musically incoherent results. I hope the DEQX doesn't fall into the same trap - otherwise Mt Marchand will be getting a call!

  7. #22
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Well, Ill tell you this, I have and use a BSS 366t. I was going to get the Lake Contour, however, I wanted front panel controls.

    The sound of my dsp unit is good, but, it also depends on your speaker/amp combination. I have been able to achieve remarkably good results with dsp.

    But, to my ears, analog xovers still sound different than dsp xovers. Im not saying better or worse, just different. Youll just have to decide whats better for yourself.

    Take the time to really dial in the DEQX, you should get some impressive results.

    scottyj

  8. #23
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    Pure Vinyl ... How come some (seems like a lot) does not accept that the world and technology is moving forward?
    It's simple really - because it hasn't, at least in the mainstream. The technology used to make, record and distribute music has undergone a downward spiral that started about the time the CD was introduced. There's a very real reason why so many of us are still listening to LP's on our JBLs - because they sound GREAT ! Why would so many of us put up with the hassles of listening to vinyl if there were no benefit?
    Think about it - no one here is talking about 8-tracks, because they suck. The LP - when well cared-for and played on a good turntable with a good cartridge - is capable of a vastly more involving musical experience than the now-common CD. The imaging is better, the micro-details are better, hell just about everything is better except having to clean them and turn them over every 20 minutes.

    Try this simple experiment for me and tell me what you think:

    1) Make sure your computer is set to display in 32-bit mode (right-click on the desktop, properties, choose settings tab)

    2) Bring up a nice color photo you took on your digital camera - make sure it has lots of colors. Anything with the sky is great for this test.

    3) Now change the color mode to 16-bit. Notice the colors now - see the "banding" that occurs when there aren't enough colors in the pallette to properly convey infinite variations ?


    You think a 16-bit CD is any different accoustically ?

    Food for thought...


    jblnut

  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlin View Post
    Widget, do you see advantages to the Alesis HD recorder over the Tascam or software routes?
    The one distinct advantage is that I have a buddy with an Alesis unit I can borrow and give a thorough try out.

    It has received rather good reviews too though.


    Widget

  10. #25
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
    1)It's simple really - because it hasn't, at least in the mainstream.2) The technology used to make, record and distribute music has undergone a downward spiral that started about the time the CD was introduced. 3)There's a very real reason why so many of us are still listening to LP's on our JBLs - because they sound GREAT ! Why would so many of us put up with the hassles of listening to vinyl if there were no benefit?
    4)Think about it - no one here is talking about 8-tracks, because they suck. The LP - when well cared-for and played on a good turntable with a good cartridge - is capable of a vastly more involving musical experience than the now-common CD. The imaging is better, the micro-details are better, hell just about everything is better except having to clean them and turn them over every 20 minutes.

    5)Try this simple experiment for me and tell me what you think:

    1) Make sure your computer is set to display in 32-bit mode (right-click on the desktop, properties, choose settings tab)

    2) Bring up a nice color photo you took on your digital camera - make sure it has lots of colors. Anything with the sky is great for this test.

    3) Now change the color mode to 16-bit. Notice the colors now - see the "banding" that occurs when there aren't enough colors in the pallette to properly convey infinite variations ?


    You think a 16-bit CD is any different accoustically ?

    Food for thought...


    jblnut
    1) Not many will agree that technology has gone backwards.

    2) I agree that the productions of CD's made in the "early years" was not always good, but CD technology AND CD players has come a long way since that time.

    3) Why? Because many are stuck in the past and for some reason like to hear hiss, clicks, and the sccchhh from the LP, believing this is supposed to be a part of the music.

    4) No matter how good the turntable and cartridge is, the noise from the contact between the needle and LP will always be there. To claim that the imaging and micro details are better on an LP than a good CD ... well, I have to say: buy a better CD player.

    5) I don't think a compare between sound and pictures is relevant.

  11. #26
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    3) Why? Because many are stuck in the past and for some reason like to hear hiss, clicks, and the sccchhh from the LP, believing this is supposed to be a part of the music.
    That's just silly... except for the younger musicians who put record surface noise on their CDs, no one wants to hear those obvious distortions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    4) No matter how good the turntable and cartridge is, the noise from the contact between the needle and LP will always be there.
    Unfortunate but true... though some are much better than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    4)To claim that the imaging and micro details are better on an LP than a good CD ... well, I have to say: buy a better CD player.
    You are right that better digital playback gear gets closer to an analog experience. However, the very best redbook CDs do not offer the vast space, air, and inner detail found on those nasty old vinyl records... some of the early '80s vinyl from DG and others that were digitally recorded also lack the sense of space, air, and inner detail. Yet they come with all of the surface noise... sort of the worst of both worlds.


    Widget

  12. #27
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    Aha! (exclamation rather than your country's most famous musical export) - fighting talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    1) Not many will agree that technology has gone backwards.
    Technology? Maybe not. Musical replay? A different question in my opinion. Try comparing a pair of Tannoy GRF Autographs with B&W803D's or maybe a Leak tuner with a Pure DAB radio.

    2) I agree that the productions of CD's made in the "early years" was not always good, but CD technology AND CD players has come a long way since that time.
    In my experience, CD mastering and the open abuse of ProTools has made the majority of commercial recordings all but unlistenable - the result of the level wars that have caused studios world wide to forget how to produce great music.

    3) Why? Because many are stuck in the past and for some reason like to hear hiss, clicks, and the sccchhh from the LP, believing this is supposed to be a part of the music.
    Sadly because, again in my experience, behind those clicks and pops lies real music with wonderful sound quality. Listen to anything to come out of the Capitol studios in the '50's or '60's and tell me with a straight face things are better today.

    4) No matter how good the turntable and cartridge is, the noise from the contact between the needle and LP will always be there. To claim that the imaging and micro details are better on an LP than a good CD ... well, I have to say: buy a better CD player.
    I'm pretty sure that the real problems with CD lie with the mastering process and not with the basic technology, but even the best CD player cannot improve compromised software - the only way of adding some body back into it is to stick a dirty great pair of JBL's on the end and turn up the volume. I'll tell you what, I'll send you a CD recorded from vinyl on an SME20/2a turntable. PM me and we'll find a recording that you have. It would be interesting to hear if you still think the CD sounds better.

  13. #28
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That's just silly... except for the younger musicians who put record surface noise on their CDs, no one wants to hear those obvious distortions.
    What is silly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Unfortunate but true... though some are much better than others.
    Yes, I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    You are right that better digital playback gear gets closer to an analog experience. However, the very best redbook CDs do not offer the vast space, air, and inner detail found on those nasty old vinyl records... some of the early '80s vinyl from DG and others that were digitally recorded also lack the sense of space, air, and inner detail. Yet they come with all of the surface noise... sort of the worst of both worlds.

    Widget
    Getting closer? Not sure what a "redbook or DG CD" is.

    I remember my MFSL, especially the UHQR recordings, Crystal Clear on 45rpm's, Telarc's, Sheffields and others with great pleasure.

    However, I was one of the "stupid ones" that sold all of my LP's and my very good HK record player with a very expensive cartridge in the very early 80's and replaced them with CD's. That is ... the ones that was (is) available.

    At that time I owned the Paragon, a DB Systems pre-amp and two Kenwood 09? mono power amps ... and the above HK turn table. I remember that I compared the vinyl with the CD. What I listen much to was Dire Straits. The most difference was in the noise from the record player, and it was very annoying to me. I cannot remember that the CD lack any details, compared to the LP, as some say.

    Today I am sorry that I sold all of my vinyl collection, but still believe that it would only stay there, not to be used.

    In the past few years I have invested in expensive hi quality CD player, pre-amp and power amps. If one do this, the result is in my opinion better than the LP's and equipment used to reproduce music.

  14. #29
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlin View Post
    Aha! (exclamation rather than your country's most famous musical export) - fighting talk



    Technology? Maybe not. Musical replay? A different question in my opinion. Try comparing a pair of Tannoy GRF Autographs with B&W803D's or maybe a Leak tuner with a Pure DAB radio.



    In my experience, CD mastering and the open abuse of ProTools has made the majority of commercial recordings all but unlistenable - the result of the level wars that have caused studios world wide to forget how to produce great music.



    Sadly because, again in my experience, behind those clicks and pops lies real music with wonderful sound quality. Listen to anything to come out of the Capitol studios in the '50's or '60's and tell me with a straight face things are better today.



    I'm pretty sure that the real problems with CD lie with the mastering process and not with the basic technology, but even the best CD player cannot improve compromised software - the only way of adding some body back into it is to stick a dirty great pair of JBL's on the end and turn up the volume. I'll tell you what, I'll send you a CD recorded from vinyl on an SME20/2a turntable. PM me and we'll find a recording that you have. It would be interesting to hear if you still think the CD sounds better.
    Please see my answer to Widget.

  15. #30
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    One of the problems in the mass record market - rock pop and that sort of thing, was that since the 1974 petroleum "shortage", the quality of vinyl used in rrecord production began to change. Previously records were made using 1st generation vinyl, so called "virgin vinyl". But as the record companies began to feel a squeeze in their costs, they came up with a new strategy. Records were sent to shops to be sold, but after a time the unsold remainders would be returned to the factory. Some "genius" had the brainstorm of recycling the old unsold records. It was done in sloppy fashion - I can remember getting records with bits of paper embedded within the plastic. As you might imagine, this kind of thing increased the surface noise of the vinyl - another reason folks fell so in love with the "silence" of CD playback.

    Yes, Mobile Fidelity (MFSL), Deutsch Gramophone (DG) and such did do some very high quality records, but the mass market product was being rushed out the door and inevitably pushed to the smaller CD media.

    And "Brothers in Arms" was the CD that also sold me on the new media - the difference between the vinyl LP and the CD was remarkable! A large part of my record collection consisted of "import" albums - uk and european artists that were generally not available in the US market, and typically on better vinyl than the usual release from the US record presses.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post

    I remember my MFSL, especially the UHQR recordings, Crystal Clear on 45rpm's, Telarc's, Sheffields and others with great pleasure.

    However, I was one of the "stupid ones" that sold all of my LP's and my very good HK record player with a very expensive cartridge in the very early 80's and replaced them with CD's. That is ... the ones that was (is) available.

    What I listen much to was Dire Straits. The most difference was in the noise from the record player, and it was very annoying to me. I cannot remember that the CD lack any details, compared to the LP, as some say.

    Today I am sorry that I sold all of my vinyl collection, but still believe that it would only stay there, not to be used.

    In the past few years I have invested in expensive hi quality CD player, pre-amp and power amps. If one do this, the result is in my opinion better than the LP's and equipment used to reproduce music.
    2ch: Oppo, JoLida 502CRC, JBL L212, 18ti,240ti; Heath AS101, Von Schweikert VR4
    7.1: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

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