104H & 104H-2

[sourceoneaudio]

Is the response curve the same on the 104H & the 104H-2? The104H-2 driver is paper so the poly 104H driver probably plays higher, and the paper driver plays lower??? I did not see either listed in the transducer information area.


J/S-S1A

[John W]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=5706
It's at the bottom of this thread.

[Nightbrace]

acoustically they are not identical, but I wouldn't see why you couldn't interchange them provided you buy a matching pair.. There shouldn't be that much of a difference. As I've discovered recently its all in the crossovers which will determine how they sound in your system and how well they will blend with the other drivers. What speakers are you considering to put them in and what networks are you planning on using?

Speaking of which, I am still interested to know what the real world difference would be with LX30 networks between the LE5-6/8/10/12's versus the 104H-2's.

[sourceoneaudio]

I talked to a friend of mine about these drivers differences and he said, the 104H-2 driver is a better driver, and cost more money for JBL to produce. So in a sense they cheapened up the mid a tad in the 250TI's using the 104H.
He stated to me one of the dead give aways is the voice coil winding. The 104H-2 uses a flat wire and there is more windings on the voice coil area. Second the 104H uses a round wire which takes up more room hense we have less windings on the coil. So I would think swapping out to 104H-2's in 250TI's would be a good thing????
Seems lots of people love the way the old JBL's sound with this driver and go as far to say the L150's are one of the best sounding speakers JBL ever made. This array uses the 104H-2 correct? Makes me think about swapping out ??????????
This information was picked up on in the technical notes found in the transducer information area.

J/S-S1A

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...9899&rd=1&rd=1

[4313B]

I talked to a friend of mine about these drivers differences and he said, the 104H-2 driver is a better driver, and cost more money for JBL to produce. So in a sense they cheapened up the mid a tad in the 250TI's using the 104H.
He stated to me one of the dead give aways is the voice coil winding. The 104H-2 uses a flat wire and there is more windings on the voice coil area. Second the 104H uses a round wire which takes up more room hense we have less windings on the coil. So I would think swapping out to 104H-2's in 250TI's would be a good thing????
Seems lots of people love the way the old JBL's sound with this driver and go as far to say the L150's are one of the best sounding speakers JBL ever made. This array uses the 104H-2 correct? Makes me think about swapping out ??????????
This information was picked up on in the technical notes found in the transducer information area.

After skimming over your posts I think you are way out of your league and would do well to find another hobby. I'm not going to be trolled into discussing the poly cones versus the paper cones. You think whatever you want and swap whatever you want.

If "lots of people" think the L150 is one of the best sounding loudspeakers JBL ever made then "lots of people" need to expand their horizons, and I don't mean by smoking dope. I think you should sell your 250Ti's and buy the L150's.

[Don C]

I talked to a friend of mine about these drivers differences and he said, the 104H-2 driver is a better driver, and cost more money for JBL to produce. So in a sense they cheapened up the mid a tad in the 250TI's using the 104H.
He stated to me one of the dead give aways is the voice coil winding. The 104H-2 uses a flat wire and there is more windings on the voice coil area. Second the 104H uses a round wire which takes up more room hense we have less windings on the coil. So I would think swapping out to 104H-2's in 250TI's would be a good thing????
Seems lots of people love the way the old JBL's sound with this driver and go as far to say the L150's are one of the best sounding speakers JBL ever made. This array uses the 104H-2 correct? Makes me think about swapping out ??????????
This information was picked up on in the technical notes found in the transducer information area.

J/S-S1A

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...9899&rd=1&rd=1

There are so many problems with your post that it is difficult to know where to start. It's like one of those Saturday Night Live sketches about Bill O'Reilly. I'll make a small attempt. JBL tranducer model names tend to receive suffixes when they are redesigned, then the suffix tends to increase over time as they are changed again. So you see, the 104H was the first 104, the 104H-1 came later, then the H-2 etc. It doesn't ususlly mean that they cheapened the driver, more often it means that they improved it, or just made a change to suit a new speaker design. The L-150 did not use the 104H-2, it used the LE5-10.

[doyall]

Speaking of which, I am still interested to know what the real world difference would be with LX30 networks between the LE5-6/8/10/12's versus the 104H-2's.

I am also curious about the LE5-x's vs. the 104-H. If you look at the JBL Professional Tranducer Replacement List, Revision P - June 1, 2003 it says that the 104H-2 is an "exact acoustic replacement" for the LE5-10, a "last resort" for the LE5-12, and a "slightly different (usually improved) replacement" for the LE5-2 and LE5-9. The same list, Revision Q - February 09, 2006 says there is no replacement for these LE5-x's. Some of the Technical Manuals (the L50 for example) say that the LE5-12 is an "exact acoustic replacement" for the LE5-10. Looking at the LE5 matrix posted elsewhere, it appears the 10 and the 12 are exactly the same except for the color. And when you look at the physical characteristics of any of the LE5 series and the 104H-2, they are different. What gives? Could these all really be so similar as to be sonically indistinguisable (sp?) with any differences detectable only by machines?

[sourceoneaudio]

Giskard
You don't need to be rude. This is a learning curve for me. I'm not a JBL know it all like yourself. I'm trying to formulate opinions and ideas. I also do not have the product break down on every fricken 4" mid JBL ever made. They all look the same. (except for the poly) And as far ad the model number goes on each I had no idea which was made first. I've been in the business since 1984, and have had my hands in everything. I've been through RTTI and RTTI advanced tech school. and, done many, and or lots of things over the years, maybe more than you, but who is measuring. So don't criticize someone who doesn't know every JBL model number, and the order they were produced, when they are trying to learn and absorb. That is what the forum is all about talking, teaching and learning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also the 250TI's are for sale as I stated b4 they are not mine.
Thank you for your help, and understanding....................

J/S-S1A

[DavidF]

I talked to a friend of mine about these drivers differences and he said, the 104H-2 driver is a better driver, and cost more money for JBL to produce. So in a sense they cheapened up the mid a tad in the 250TI's using the 104H.
He stated to me one of the dead give aways is the voice coil winding. The 104H-2 uses a flat wire and there is more windings on the voice coil area. Second the 104H uses a round wire which takes up more room hense we have less windings on the coil. So I would think swapping out to 104H-2's in 250TI's would be a good thing????
Seems lots of people love the way the old JBL's sound with this driver and go as far to say the L150's are one of the best sounding speakers JBL ever made. This array uses the 104H-2 correct? Makes me think about swapping out ??????????
This information was picked up on in the technical notes found in the transducer information area.

J/S-S1A

Maybe some confusion on the 104H v. 104H-2 is contributing to some wrong conclusions. Check out the resources in the forum in the LE5 matrix.

JBL's spec sheet shows the same voice coil description for both the 104H and the H-2,3- depth= .22 in., 58 turns of 34 g. copper wire. Note the 2105 et al. There the copper ribbon wire is used.

The 104H-2,3 models have been used in many pro and home models. An easy conclusion to make is that this model has been cheaper for JBL if for no other reason than economies of scale.

The 104H was a break from JBL's stalwart use of paper stock for the mids and woofers. The development costs and limited use in the Ti series of speakers suggests to me that that the 104H driver was far more expensive for JBL to produce.

Regardless whether one individual unit is better than the other based upon price, your conclusion that swapping the 104H out for the 104H-2,3 would provide an improvement is misguided. It ignores the distinct electrical and acoustic differences between the drivers. The "system" is designed and tuned with the 104H installed. Plug in another driver and you start to negate the whole-system design effort.

I agree that L150 was a fine system and at the time of its introduction was an excellent performer. But it did not use any of the drivers mentioned.

David F

[Zilch]

And when you look at the physical characteristics of any of the LE5 series and the 104H-2, they are different. What gives? Could these all really be so similar as to be sonically indistinguisable (sp?) with any differences detectable only by machines?

I also do not have the product break down on every fricken 4" mid JBL ever made. They all look the same. (except for the poly)

Different viewpoints, apparently.

The differences, major and minor, are shown in the LE5 Matrix, along with the FR curves. The actual performance, however, is application specific, and must be determined in the context of the the network, cabinet design, companion drivers, and layout, some of which may be gleaned from the product usage listings there.

That's not being evasive. Substitutions must be evaluated in situ. Anything else is merely a gross approximation.

Does 104H-2 mitigate the forward character of L100? Well, somewhat.

Is that an improvement? :dont-know

[sourceoneaudio]

David,
Thank you for the honest answer and patience, as I stated in the previous post this is a learning curve for me. Just trying stuff to see if It is, or if anyone has tried the swap to make them sound better if it's even possible. I love the way the sound if given a choice not even heard the L150's I would stick with the 250TI's because of product advancements. I only stated that because it seems a common ground for JBL to use a 4" mid in lots of different speaker systems. I look to these 250TI's as a great 2 channel room speaker. Personally I use Klipsch in my Home Theater as seen in my avitar pic. I love the stuff and will probably never change out. That is a custom center I made focused after the RF-7, and I use RF-7's for my front mains with a 1000 watts on them, also have a 1000 watts running my center channel, and a 1000 watts on my subs all Adcom GFA-5802 powered.

J/S-S1A

[4313B]

Giskard
You don't need to be rude. This is a learning curve for me. I'm not a JBL know it all like yourself. I'm trying to formulate opinions and ideas. I also do not have the product break down on every fricken 4" mid JBL ever made. They all look the same. (except for the poly) And as far ad the model number goes on each I had no idea which was made first. I've been in the business since 1984, and have had my hands in everything. I've been through RTTI and RTTI advanced tech school. and, done many, and or lots of things over the years, maybe more than you, but who is measuring. So don't criticize someone who doesn't know every JBL model number, and the order they were produced, when they are trying to learn and absorb. That is what the forum is all about talking, teaching and learning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also the 250TI's are for sale as I stated b4 they are not mine.
Thank you for your help, and understanding....................

J/S-S1A

I'm not going to get into yet another rough and tumble with someone who comes on this forum and starts trolling. Your posts are provocative, and not in a good way. I'm going to warn you just once - drop it. Read what's been laboriously posted here and drop the "my friend said this" crap followed with a completely contrary pile of garbage. It really looks like you're trying to draw fire.

Check out the resources in the forum in the LE5 matrix.

Exactly. We didn't do this for our health. You start shooting up the place with these kinds of posts I've witnessed recently and somebody is going to shoot back. Take the LE14H-1's from yesterday. You ticked me off with that - a vision of a little kid walking down the road with his hands over his ears yelling LA!LA!LA! sprang to mind. You have to know how to work the system. Harman is HUGE and the left hand has virtually no clue what the right hand is doing.

David,
Thank you for the honest answer and patience, as I stated in the previous post this is a learning curve for me.

We didn't know that from a few of your posts. We figured you were the expert with your vast knowledge of the 250Ti network. Or was that another friend talking there too?

If you look at the JBL Professional Tranducer Replacement List, Revision P - June 1, 2003 it says that the 104H-2 is an "exact acoustic replacement" for the LE5-10, a "last resort" for the LE5-12, and a "slightly different (usually improved) replacement" for the LE5-2 and LE5-9. The same list, Revision Q - February 09, 2006 says there is no replacement for these LE5-x's. Some of the Technical Manuals (the L50 for example) say that the LE5-12 is an "exact acoustic replacement" for the LE5-10. Looking at the LE5 matrix posted elsewhere, it appears the 10 and the 12 are exactly the same except for the color. And when you look at the physical characteristics of any of the LE5 series and the 104H-2, they are different. What gives?

The people that compile this information make mistakes. It's that simple. We've tried to provide the best information in the LE5 matrix based on extensive experience along with input from those at JBL who've been there from the early 70's until today. We actually were going to do a whole series of things like that but everyone lost interest. This place wears on one. Maybe in a few years when we have time and if this place is still around.

Could these all really be so similar as to be sonically indistinguisable (sp?) with any differences detectable only by machines?

I suppose it could be real convenient to put it that way. I'll support that.

[sourceoneaudio]

[quote=Giskard;145930]
Exactly. We didn't do this for our health. You start shooting up the place with these kinds of posts I've witnessed recently and somebody is going to shoot back. Take the LE14H-1's from yesterday. You ticked me off with that - a vision of a little kid walking down the road with his hands over his ears yelling LA!LA!LA! sprang to mind.
You have to know how to work the system. Harman is HUGE and the left hand has virtually no clue what the right hand is doing.
We didn't know that from a few of your posts. We figured you were the expert with your vast knowledge of the 250Ti network. Or was that another friend talking there too?

Shooting???? I don't know what your referring to.

As far as yesterday goes I have no idea what you are referring to. I just went of on info given to me on this forum that they might be still ava. I was filling the information void, with the post/e-mail from JBL I would love them to be in stock as would a bunch of us on this forum, but I go where the information leads me. If you know a better way to get around the system and help me with a woofer fix that is correct, please point or help. I would really appreciate it.
Second, the x-over information is what I've learned about the two trying to fix my issues at hand. Trying to do the best repair I can on these towers. I was going to buy the L250 x-overs until I did a comparison and figured out all of the work involved/needed to make them work in a 250TI.
(board swap) So the information I posted is from research, text, and first hand experience................ I hope it helped people in the forum.

Thank you for your help.

J/S-S1A

[Zilch]

I would love them to be in stock as would a bunch of us on this forum, but I go where the information leads me. If you know a better way to get around the system and help me with a woofer fix that is correct, please point or help. I would really appreciate it.

Giskard gave you the part number to order the NOS LE14H-1s, and suggested that you consider getting a pair so that they are matched.

Did you order them?

He also pointed out elsewhere that LE14H-3s were a drop-in replacement. Those you have to order and wait to obtain, because they are not routinely stocked....

[sourceoneaudio]

I still don't get where I'm supposed to order them from. I went to JBL direct and Harmon parts and they show not in stock. Is there a back door on the site for ordering????? I did put my name on the list for the LE14H-3's still no answer.

J/S-S1A