+ Reply to Thread
Page 32 of 35 FirstFirst ... 223031323334 ... LastLast
Results 466 to 480 of 511

Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #466
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    #!@$#$%#$%?%?&

    Sorry for all readers...

    I perform few time ago a test for my brother who not accept the LF is run Original inward motion and I omit to reconnect my LF in good original sense of my 4343 stock...

    so I keep in mind a confusion and run my all test in this wrong assertion.

    because I confuse too all in wrong test I keep a couple time for reset all parameter and I will come back with good value...

    Sorry again.


    Jean.

  2. #467
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Refer to basic 2nd order crossover theory at Rod Elliotts Sound pages for a thorough explanation of filter phase shifts.
    Ian

    Thanks Ian for info,

    After long process read, I realize - if this guy is expose all datas arround phase passive network- the question is not finally if outward motion or inward motion but the cancellation arround cross network area in two driver. specially in LF-MF.

    so I perform pink noise, mic a 1 meter at half distance in LF driver and Mid driver
    I do not modified any other parameter than the side connection of LF on dc 3145 (bigNet).

    the result is maybe not surprise you but the LF is better integration if is outphase (inward motion) (black wire with black post driver) and the 2121 is outward motion.

    see pict.
    (dashe line LF inward motion + MF outward motion )
    ( plain line LF outward motion + MF outward motion )


    Ok for that ... this is standart connection of 4343


    but, actually the schematic (courtesy of Giskard ) expose exactly inverse connection ==> LF in phase (outward motion ) and all other driver outphase (inward motion).




    + with + and - with -

    but old convention polarity expose black post driver is + and red is neg..

    I know the driver is not same but is appear to work on old convention polarity JBL ... what is final word of this connection set-up ???

    Giskard ?? others members who work on 3145 shematic ???

    help on your light please...


    Jean.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #468
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    same test but with original stock 4343 with 3143 network.

    see pict.

    ( plain line LF inward motion + MF outward motion )
    ( dashe line LF outward motion + MF outward motion )


    Ok for that ... this is standart connection of 4343

    I remark the difference of out phase and in-phase is more important here than 3145 DC charge....
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #469
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Tardis
    Posts
    5,946
    Okay,

    I was wondering about the bass/mid intergration?

    What value choke and capacitors is on the woofer filter also also the 2121 midrange. Are you using 2121 mid range or 2122 midrange ?

    I went back to your earlier posts and saw the charge coupled schematic with the 3145 network values scaled for charge coulping.

    If you are using the 2121 midrange the net woofer values should be 5.4mh and 72uf. The midrange should be 2.8 mh and 52 uf as the 3145 network is designed around the 2235H/2245H and the 2122H.

    Again I only raise this points as you suggested earlier it sounded strange either way of polarity.

    Ian

  5. #470
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Tardis
    Posts
    5,946
    Also i saw in your pictures the internal JBL rotary switch .

    I would be horrified if you have not bypassed that switch!

    Also, can you advise how long the sand take to settle? Do you need to compact the sand down or allow it to settle over time then top up.

    I read in UK speaker manual sand is very good but needs time to settle.

    Ian

  6. #471
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    What value choke and capacitors is on the woofer filter also also the 2121 midrange. Are you using 2121 mid range or 2122 midrange ?

    I went back to your earlier posts and saw the charge coupled schematic with the 3145 network values scaled for charge coulping.

    If you are using the 2121 midrange the net woofer values should be 5.4mh and 72uf. The midrange should be 2.8 mh and 52 uf as the 3145 network is designed around the 2235H/2245H and the 2122H.

    Again I only raise this points as you suggested earlier it sounded strange either way of polarity.

    Ian






    Hi,

    yes This is original 2121 with new old stock 2121 diaghram. (around 3 years )

    but the 2231 is recone with only now 2235 kit... so I have hybrid

    I build my network in according of schema so the LF is 5.4 mH and mf is 1.8 in series and 4.8mH in parrallele.


    I have no time this week for recalibrate sytem in particular 2121 for evaluate taste of integration. in first impression I loose bass but it is normal in fact the high end spectrum of LF and low of mid is higher of 3-6 db.... change global ptch of speaker response....

    but next week I'm back with correction L-Pad and feeling of taste.

    but this is not explain why 3145 is plug LF in outward motion and all the rest of driver is inward ???

  7. #472
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Tardis
    Posts
    5,946
    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan



    Hi,

    yes This is original 2121 with new old stock 2121 diaghram. (around 3 years )

    but the 2231 is recone with only now 2235 kit... so I have hybrid

    I build my network in according of schema so the LF is 5.4 mH and mf is 1.8 in series and 4.8mH in parrallele.


    I have no time this week for recalibrate sytem in particular 2121 for evaluate taste of integration. in first impression I loose bass but it is normal in fact the high end spectrum of LF and low of mid is higher of 3-6 db.... change global ptch of speaker response....

    but next week I'm back with correction L-Pad and feeling of taste.

    but this is not explain why 3145 is plug LF in outward motion and all the rest of driver is inward ???
    OOPS.
    The coil should be 2.8 mh in parrellel as I recall!! ....hope this is not too disturbing.

    By the way Do you watch Doctor Who? Sarah Jane Smith (on the motor bike) says hello and she admires your persistence.

  8. #473
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Also i saw in your pictures the internal JBL rotary switch .

    I would be horrified if you have not bypassed that switch!

    Also, can you advise how long the sand take to settle? Do you need to compact the sand down or allow it to settle over time then top up.

    I read in UK speaker manual sand is very good but needs time to settle.

    Ian
    1---- the switch is cancelled in first project modification with cap solen on original network 3143 the cancellation switch have improved really really more sound than new caps. it is a responsable to correction of curve of LF and more power in mid. but i not pull-up switch, just cut wire and put soldering...

    maybe one guy in futur is wanted vintage speaker.... all pieces is keeped and stored...


    2--- the nature of sand is associated of the level of gap settle.

    this quarzt sand is more sharp and regular grid so the level of settle is not a big variation... it is same sand for sandblast or for filter of pool. just warning it is a abbrasive sand and fume is corrosif.... but the density is more than standart sand and no imperfection or surprise humidity. so better .

    well, if you shake firmly the speaker for put sand all in small intertice, and you put a baf on back panel in couple of minutes the big sette is accomplish, maybe max 1 litre is next couple of time you arrival to fill step by step.

    but if if you have a small gap it is not critical because the sand is recover completely the caps and others parts.... and other hand the majority of energy is at the level of LF so the inertia is garantee ad sand is not really create a vibration. finnaly at each fill the next is maybe 5 % so after couples of week you put a couple of spoon for fill up.



  9. #474
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    OOPS.
    The coil should be 2.8 mh in parrellel as I recall!! ....hope this is not too disturbing.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...&postcount=371

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    By the way Do you watch Doctor Who? Sarah Jane Smith (on the motor bike) says hello and she admires your persistence.
    Unfortunaly my only series or soap is here.

    I just look one time only the previous in english TV and I recognize your prev pict avatar. (I loved)

    ----------------------------------------
    Remercier donc pour moi cette charmante créature qui me fait penser à une étrange version de harold et maude...

    Ma devise est " tant qu'à le faire pourquoi ne pas bien le faire"

    d'autre part, Le plaisirs de trouver des réponses valables à des questions de fonds sont la véritable essence de ces forums... et parfois de l'échange et du choc des idées nait la lumière qui nous élève presque au rang des chercheur qui bâtissent pour nous ces merveilles de technologie.

    par chez nous on m'appele le totaliste car dans ce type de R & D il n'y pas de place pour les mettons, si ou peut-être.

    ----------------------------------------

    and thanks for this compliments.


  10. #475
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    ahhhhhhhhhhh

    the life is never easy or simple....


    do you remeber of few post I send pict of thiel driver for expose cleary the response motion and phase ????

    at this time I have not keep information for you and my little head too full is not realize a phenomenon.

    If I inverted polarity and put one driver diect of amp with out network, caps or other electronics the inward motion on impulse signal create same power of low but more power in high...

    Maybe my intrumentation is not too higher for this phenomenon but the result is : if you plug LF in back motion you increase the upper end response....

    so this difference phase according of pink noise excitation (in just prev post ) is maybe just result of reaction of inward motion diaghram not in phase reaction....

    My feeling is go in this direction because it is strongly weird: the analyser expose good phase... and integration of 2 drivers: this result is a cancellation ???

    well, be shure I go deep question next week.



  11. #476
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Posts
    9,985
    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    But this is not explain why 3145 is plug LF in outward motion and all the rest of driver is inward ???
    Did you build according to Post 124 (Page 9), or according to Posts 170 and 174 (Page 12)? Because, they are possibly NOT the same with respect to polarity. You do not show the driver connection polarities in 170 and 174, so we don't know HOW you connected the drivers.

    Also, it's 120 uF and 120 uF, not 16 uF, as shown in MF of 174. I assume you or someone else caught that....

    As drawn in 124, the (-) terminal (black) of the LF driver connects to the (-) input terminal, whereas it is the (+) terminals (red) of the three other drivers that connect to the (-) input terminal. Is that how you built and wired it?

    The inversion is the same in the 3143 schematic. In both cases, when a positive voltage is applied to the (+) input terminal, the LF driver will move IN, and the others will move out.

    Also, as an aside, when voltage drives were prepared analyzing the role and placement of the 52 uF capacitor, the switching out of the first (2.9 mH) inductor in the biamp mode was not taken into account. The 52 uF capacitor is also shorted out in biamp, which is not consistant with its alleged "protective" role.

    Yes, I did see the assertion that the factory schematic is possibly wrong.

    Factory 3145 schematic bypasses both its 60 uF and 4.8 mH in the biamp mode, as I read it.

    Don't smack me on that point; I'll look at it again, and I've only reviewed the first 16 pages of the thread, and it is very late here....

  12. #477
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Tardis
    Posts
    5,946
    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    1--- For UHF section
    a--- what is " .10mH + 9V " in uhf section ????

    A cut and paste vestige - I fixed it.

    b--- Because I'm a 2405 (16 ohms) and the DCR is 8 ohms and the 2405H
    is 4 ohms DCR Right??
    it is necessary to modifie circuit in according impedance change ???

    No. All 077's, 2405's and 2405H's are 10 ohm transducers regardless of what is stamped on the foilcal.

    2--- For LF section
    a--- the 5.4 mH air coil is .63 Ohms....
    but I found a air core of .30 Ohms...
    It is a better but the difference in ohms it is problem ???

    No. Use the 0.30 ohm 5.4 mH coil.

    It is necessary to compensate by a resistance in serial ???

    No.

    b--- Heuu.... Giskard it is possible to other cut and paste error:
    In your second listing parts you match 33 mfd and 51 mfd for
    according of not 2 X 40 Mfd is not available on solen but this caps
    is obligation to match value in opposite (according to DC Charge) ???

    The 33 uF and 51 uF in series are closer to 20 uF than the two 39 uF.
    Use whichever you want.

    3--- For MF section
    a--- You write put down mH in coil for 2121 => 1.8 to 1.7 but It is necessary to adap the 2420 too

    I'm not going to modify the 3144/3145 circuit for a 2121. It has undesireable breakup modes and I would never use it. Recone a 2121 as a 2122.

    4--- For HF section (according to modification) :
    a--- 3 resistance in parralle in 62 ohms but one of .42 Ohms in serial with
    .68 mH ?? It is value of coil resistance or it really other resistance
    for compensation of transfo coil???

    5--- The PB is polypropylene caps 400V...
    it is better to build with a bypass at low value in paper and foil ???
    ( I know is realy higher price but I dont care at this state... )

    I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.
    Here is a the clue.

    Jean has not reconed the 2121 yet....Harararararararara

    In case this Jean the whole mid filter not going to work as this filter is designed only for the 2122 re cone only...Giskard's response would be.


    Ian

  13. #478
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Posts
    9,985
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Here is a the clue.
    That wouldn't make the LF transducer move out instead of in, tho.

    I'm beginning to think the "Why" is a question intended for and perhaps best addressed by the forum design philosophy division....

  14. #479
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Did you build according to Post 124 (Page 9), or according to Posts 170 and 174 (Page 12)? Because, they are possibly NOT the same with respect to polarity. You do not show the driver connection polarities in 170 and 174, so we don't know HOW you connected the drivers.
    well, according it is my first experience in electronic domain , I have many errors in the path of this quest... this scematic is not final schematic and many error is relevant after see ex: post 308..

    finally my electrical response expose all is work in conform to 3145 schema response. the polarity is in regards of post schema of Giskard in post 308 or the original 3145 PDF. according of this the LF is connected in outward motion. and the 3143 is connected in inward motion. !!!

    so yes maybe philosophy question here. if really the set-up of 3145 : why JBL put 15 outward motion ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch

    Also, it's 120 uF and 120 uF, not 16 uF, as shown in MF of 174. I assume you or someone else caught that....
    This is error copy & paste and it is corrected in few next posts...



    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Don't smack me on that point; I'll look at it again, and I've only reviewed the first 16 pages of the thread, and it is very late here....

    yes I understand, yesterday I posted this in 4 am (I'm new York time)

  15. #480
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Posts
    9,985
    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    Finally my electrical response expose all is work in conform to 3145 schema response. the polarity is in regards of post schema of Giskard in post 308 or the original 3145 PDF. according of this the LF is connected in outward motion. and the 3143 is connected in inward motion. !!!
    In post 308, Earl inverted the connection of the LF driver. See Giskard's schematic there. The (-) network INPUT connection goes straight through the network to the (-) output connection to the LF driver, which would be the black driver terminal. Earl shows it going to the red terminal of the driver, which incorrectly puts all of the drivers in phase.

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...age=21&p=60751.

    See the pdf schematics for 3143 and 3145:

    http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Net...%20Network.pdf

    http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Net...%20Network.pdf

    In both of these JBL published cases, the black (-) network INPUT terminal connects to the black (-) terminal of the LF driver but to the RED (+) terminals of the other three drivers, as I described above. The wire and driver terminal colors are not shown on the pdf 3145 schematic, but, per JBL convention, (-) output designation goes to black driver terminal.

    Earl's post 308 erroneously inverts the LF driver connection, putting it in phase with the other drivers (only MF is shown), and that is likely the source of the difference in driver motion between your factory 3143 and "Bignet" crossovers, assuming your drivers are connected per Earl's drawing in post 308.

    In ALL cases, wired per JBL or per Giskard specification, the LF moves IN when (+) voltage is applied to the network input terminal....

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Ashly XR1001 Active Crossover
    By boputnam in forum Electronic Crossovers
    Replies: 156
    Last Post: 10-06-2009, 09:58 AM
  2. JBL 4343 external crossover needed? help!!!
    By catcaster1 in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-29-2004, 08:23 PM
  3. Questions about the Ashly XR1001 Active Crossover
    By porschedpm in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-19-2004, 01:37 PM
  4. Upgrading a 4343 to 4344 components
    By porschedpm in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-29-2004, 10:45 AM
  5. L300 convert to 4343?
    By tv506 in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-24-2003, 12:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts