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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #16
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    Hi There (again) ,

    - Back to this 52uf cap question. ( After a couple of years )

    - Here's a link to a place that consistently sells these MPP caps in oil ( that I previously mentioned above ). Click Here !!!

    - I'd recommend buying the listed 40 uf /370 volt , Sprague Motor-Run for use a base cap . At less than $5.00 a piece ( before taxes or shipping ) it's really hard to go wrong in buying a couple ( to at least play about with ) .

    - I'd then follow Gordons' advice from above but implementing a hybrid version of it. That means I would add a 10uf Dayton MPP ( dry film ) on top of the 40 uf motor run and then another higher quality 2 uf Film & Foil Polypropylene sort ontop of this mix to make up the desired 52 uf value. So far IME, the smoothness of Polystyrenes bypass caps are somewhat "lost" in coned speakers of that size ( 10" ) so I would use the .01 uf Audio Thetas from RelCap / these have quite a following at this forum ( though I haven't yet tried them ).

    - Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


    - To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE !


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi There (again) ,

    - Back to this 52uf cap question. ( After a couple of years )

    - Here's a link to a place that consistently sells these MPP caps in oil ( that I previously mentioned above ). Click Here !!!

    - I'd recommend buying the listed 40 uf /370 volt , Sprague Motor-Run for use a base cap . At less than $5.00 a piece ( before taxes or shipping ) it's really hard to go wrong in buying a couple ( to at least play about with ) .

    - I'd then follow Gordons' advice from above but implementing a hybrid version of it. That means I would add a 10uf Dayton MPP ( dry film ) on top of the 40 uf motor run and then another higher quality 2 uf Film & Foil Polypropylene sort ontop of this mix to make up the desired 52 uf value. So far IME, the smoothness of Polystyrenes bypass caps are somewhat "lost" in coned speakers of that size ( 10" ) so I would use the .01 uf Audio Thetas from RelCap / these have quite a following at this forum ( though I haven't yet tried them ).

    - Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


    - To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE !



    thanks very much !!! for all precise informations.

    I suppose it is possible to mesure the result of circuit of the special blend receipt...

    I go in JENSEN site www and the white paper of capacitor is very interesting and go in according information of forum but never found guy is tal a quad capacitor why ??? I appear with a excellent capacitor where the integration of the blend selection in one capacitor ??? I'm a bad comprehension ???

    http://www.jensencapacitors.com/audi...ers/4pole.html




  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi There (again) ,

    - Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


    - To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE !

    THANKS !! and very interesting...

    Well If I understand correct, the DC biais is same performance of blend of Capacitor approach or is better ???


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K

    I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased )
    Do you have a schematic of your circuit for exemple and more comprehension ???

    Thanks for all

    Jean.

  5. #20
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    Jean,

    I suppose it is possible to measure the result of a circuit of the special blend receipt ( recipe )...
    - From my perspective ( & specifically with capacitors ) ,,, the only worthwhile measurement is what your ears will tell you . The rest is largely bunk and/or marketing jargon wrapped up in some quasi scientific techno babble.

    - Regarding your observations about the "electrical" response shapes from the testing of your 3143 network : any electrical response study only tells a partial story / you'll now need to look at the "net" acoustical responses obtained by the actual drivers with those filters attached.
    - Everything you've posted above is really quite interesting ( especially the 2420 circuit ) / but taken alone, those electrical responses don't conclude much of anything .
    - an "in room" RTA for each of the 4 sections would be a good next step .


  6. #21
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    Well If I understand correct, the DC biais is same performance of blend of Capacitor approach or is better ???
    - No, blending caps is a completely different craft
    from
    DC biasing caps .

    - The expected results aren't related to each other .

    Do you have a schematic of your circuit for exemple and more comprehension ???
    - I'll draw up some schematics within a day or two . I'll post them this weekend.

    - I'll need to create 3 schematics to cover the different points that I have talked about .




  7. #22
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    thanks very much



    (and sorry for my poor english: I'M french it is tuff to write in other language )




    and Of course the final result is acoustical result is criterion of the happy musical feeling but in general if the mesure is not corrolar the result is rarely good.

    In philosophy, this expression is: science is minimal obligations conditions but not sufficient conditions.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    I'M french it is tuff to write in other language
    NOT A PROBLEM! Post in French and my wife will read it to me...

    SO HOT!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    - No, blending caps is a completely different craft
    from
    DC biasing caps .

    - The expected results aren't related to each other .

    Well, at your taste what is the best ???



    ------------------------------
    Is exist only one verity but is leave out
    ------------------------------

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    NOT A PROBLEM! Post in French and my wife will read it to me...

    SO HOT!

    EH bien vous m'en voyiez ravie...

    Et comme vous êtes en airs de taquinez le poisson j'aurais bien une petite mais gentille revange en vous félicitant pour la réalisation exemplaire que vous avez produit pour monsieur Widget. J'ai rencontrer un type cette semaine pour me construire mes flitres passif mais le type n'était définitivement pas à la hauteur. Pour un oeil avertie, le positionnement de vos bobine, les pièces etc, exprime une réelle maitrise. Et j'espère pour vous que vous avez bien un merveilleuse épouse qui peux traduire ces compliments auxquels cas ils tomberont dans les yeux d'un autre...



    Jean

  11. #26
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    Upgrade.

    I'll be blunt as usual - the 4343 network is probably best left in a museum. Upgrade to a 4344 system.

    G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network is so much better.

    JBL used G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network in the 4344.

    Robh3606? Ian? jarrods? Care to comment? You guys built the 3145 right?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Upgrade.

    I'll be blunt as usual - the 4343 network is probably best left in a museum. Upgrade to a 4344 system.

    G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network is so much better.

    JBL used G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network in the 4344.

    Robh3606? Ian? jarrods? Care to comment? You guys built the 3145 right?

    My mind is completely open to any improvement upgrade in all passif circuit orientation.

    If 98oo network circuit is better... No problem, just need little help to adap of cut frequency...

    For you Opignion Giskard, the Dc charge it is better approach to blend capacitor??

    Oh! en passant, bien le bonjour à votre épouse...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    My mind is completely open to any improvement upgrade in all passif circuit orientation.

    I'd have to highly recommend the 4344 upgrade. Hopefully others will add their experiences here.

    If 98oo network circuit is better... No problem, just need little help to adap of cut frequency...

    Competely different animal; Highly specialized, especially with respect to the characteristics of the H9800/435Be.

    For you Opignion Giskard, the Dc charge it is better approach to blend capacitor??

    I'm going to have to support the DC charge solution. It's very good. In fact, just the other day I received yet another email in response to a remark about various legacy systems being upgraded with charge-coupled networks stating that not once had JBL run across an instance where the DC charge solution didn't improve the overal system. That sentence probably gets a "D" or "F" for runon but whatever.

    Oh! en passant, bien le bonjour à votre épouse...

    She isn't here right now...

  14. #29
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    Well, at your taste what is the best ??? ( DC biasing vs blending )
    - I generally DC bias all the caps that I can access within any circuit. I would always chose this appoach over just blending caps .

    - Blending is my attempt to try to cook up something that I like by combining different inexpensive dielectrics . I just happen to enjoy this pastime more so than buying each & every expensive cap from the worldwide catalogue .

    - In the last 1/2 year I've started looking for areas where the bias effect is less pronounced . I'm looking for an "efficacy" statement / on its' implementation / to determine where to best apply the investment. So far one area where the investment in quadruple capacitance seems wasted is on oil-soaked caps. But this is from a very limited representation of available models. OTOH , I've never heard an inexpensive dry film cap that didn't improve with some DC biasing .

    So - to repeat ; I've very keen on DC biasing .



  15. #30
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    AH ah!! I'm look the treasure in deah sea...

    well I suppose the 4344 network is need ajusment for the full compatibility of the 4343 driver.
    Ex the impedence is the same ???

    the cut frecquency is same???

    this circuit is better but it is a DC charge???

    And finaly What is your best selection if I go in Dc charge circuit, same capacitor, fast cap, oil,etc...

    P.S. I wait your wife comment

    but is if too hard to wait go to :

    http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate

    copy & paste and Voilà !!


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