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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #196
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rek50
    The Alchemy of sound.
    SOLDER?

    And here I thought amalgam was the source of all woe.

    Same kinda stuff, now that I think about it, I guess....

  2. #197
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Alchemy!

    I knew there was a word for this stuff....

    Keep up the good work guys and get back to us when the formula for gold, or perhaps in this case silver is discovered.

    Widget

  3. #198
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    I would also like to know of a "Bench" burn-in method.
    - I would think that 10 to 20 volts of filtered Pink Noise, through the cap in question, loaded by an appropriately valued resistive dummy load / would do the job.

    Those CCCP PIO caps caught my eye/brain too. A report may be in order.
    - Well, their purchase is a cheap enough education .
    ( though I've already had to re-engage my "all biased" stalwarts for violin & trumpet based CDs )

    - I've only had them less than 24 hours. Non-baised ( at this time ) they don't have as generous a lower mid as I was hoping for ( this is somewhat a surprise and does manifest itself as a pinched character on the already referenced musical instruments ). Maybe "burn-in" will loosen the belt around the lower midrange ( though this doesn't usually happen in my experience / OTOH, I expect some of the topend resonances will get tamed ).

    - Quite a nice top-end ( if a little bit "feathered" along with a higher-voiced "splash" when compared to KP types - about 1/2 an octave higher ). And yes, I am seeking out a bit more splash since I'm running a two-way ( using my 288s ) and I still prefer to forgoe using a dedicated UHF tweeter .

    - I'll be curious about how they bias-up ( sometime later this week ).

    the Alchemy of sound
    - Yea, I like that analogy .


  4. #199
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    - I would think that 10 to 20 volts of filtered Pink Noise, through the cap in question, loaded by an appropriately valued resistive dummy load / would do the job.

    - Well, their purchase is a cheap enough education .

    Thanks again Earl,

    For my part I'm not found a secret to faster burn-in electronic... connection, soldering, all is delicate...

    I put here a just little point of view of this enormous icerberg...

    And. in regards of other comments, I suppose it is a stupid guys too.


    http://www.fda.gov/ora/inspect_ref/itg/itg19.html

    just little find on google on this question...

    electronic+burn-in+time+and+test+procedure+

    Jean.


  5. #200
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    I worked for a number of years in a reliability test lab in Silicon Valley. We would burn-in electronic components of all types ranging from simple diodes to microwave devices. Our clients were NASA, Lockheed, the US Navy, etc.

    A typical burn-in procedure would be to operate the device at 100% of it's rating in a test chamber at +125°C for 168 hrs. (1 week)

    Widget

  6. #201
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    - Thanks for that link Jean .

    - I especially liked ( noted ) the part about the MIL. spec. using a "DC-Biasing" to "stress-test" electronic parts during "burn-in" .

    - Intriguing info that . ( , Maybe I ought to increase the DC bias up to 27 volts + on all new caps / for this ( soon-to-be designed ) burn-in procedure . .


  7. #202
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    Thanks for that link Jean , Thanks for the info Earl. I did see the PIO caps on the "bay", but I can't find them again . I suspect we all have our favorite "Testing Music" to sample the "Flavour De Jour". Jean, have you ever tried "If I Could Only Remember My Name, by David Crosby 1971? IMO, if you have your network "Flavoured" just right, for this one, you HAVE it.

  8. #203
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    A typical burn-in procedure would be to operate the device at 100% of it's rating in a test chamber at +125°C for 168 hrs. (1 week)
    Widget
    Thanks Mr Widget for this hint....

    this is go in my read of many mil spec standart for test procedure...
    I understand in manys tests, the tempeture is one of key for colapste time...

    But a couple test burn-in is really shorter the life of parts...

    But I'M not shure this type of test is corresponding to burn-in or rodage in audio orientation...



    =========================


    Earl,

    The pink noise is special signal because it is really full frequency and really below amplitute than music (where many pure tone appear) but the power is same... (it is difficult to explain with my poor english)

    The pink noise play less loud as same volume than music. so you have possibility to stress material with pink noise because more power at equal same playback plus the entire spectrum is appllied on parts...

    But I'm not shure you run full or middle power the time burn-in is change...

    Maybe the pseudo impulse train is better set-up to burn-in but... stress in transient is probably better than random noise or pink noise...

    all test to try to colapse time is limited... never is equal to the real time laps...

    Jean.

    I go go today to buy my box of caps in Solen....

  9. #204
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    I did see the PIO caps on the "bay", but I can't find them again
    PIO caps on eBay (most from the former CCCP / "The Evil Empire")

    - I bought the 2.2uf / 400 volt variety shown. These feature an oil-soaked metallized paper , all encased within a metal tube with hermitically sealed in glass ends. Landed cost was around $60.00 Cdn for 20 caps.
    ( Collecting caps from around the world is not a cheap hobby, FWIW )

    - I'd like some of the 1.0uf / 160 volt types to make up other sizes .

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  10. #205
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    Jean,

    The Solen film/foil are characteristic bright and do benefit from burn in as for most caps.

    Pink or probably better white noise would work. I've heard some use an FM tuner off station for this. I suspect it has the effect of relaxing the dielectric.

    According to some capacitor manufacturers, the winding tension as a lot do do with the overall sonic character of a film/foil & metalised / film foil.

    This is where is becomes a black Art, using specialised winding equipment, the skill of the operator, proprietary dieletric forumations etc.

    For about ten years I was in the industrial sales and marketing manager in coated fabrics business and we used special coating and tape sealing equipment. All our competitors had similar equipment but it was our technical knowledge of materials, the skill of our plant operators and the close relationships with our customers and end use applications that gave us the competitive advantage.

    I imagine the capacitor industry is no different and the guys that make these more specialised exotic capacitors are in niche markets. Hence they keep their hands close to their chests.

    Ian

  11. #206
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Jean,
    According to some capacitor manufacturers, the winding tension as a lot do do with the overall sonic character of a film/foil & metalised / film foil.
    Ian
    Hi Earl, and thanks for good point of view....

    I go today in Solen And i talk big clash theory with Solen fondator.

    Denis Solen is friend of Meitner too ...

    I put argumentation of found in S5500 product overview.

    Solen is explain the electrolytic IS bad caps, and problem of memory, loadding current, and Zero cross problem. For fast caps this is absolutely not valuable...

    Solen explain for fast caps, the Dc charge is affecte the response but in worse side... the dc charge on film and foil is downgrade in regards standart circuit... TITAN shock because Giskar is expose a point of view of G.Timber where is consider the best is DC charge in Film and foil....




    The best is build 2 versions but the price for extreme version is just over thousand...

    so, I hope Giskar the great and Mr JBL ingeneer is wind this TITAN shock...


    But for your beautiful forum I keep notes of discution and I perform test on specialised machine instrumental evaluation of caps ...


    OK !! fix your helmet...

    all caps is 2,2uF value....

    =====================
    test electrolytic:

    ---real = 21,69 uf
    --- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,03856
    --- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
    not a inductance or reactance
    = 0,2829
    ======================
    test polyester:

    ---real = 21,11 uf
    --- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00388
    --- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
    not a inductance or reactance
    = 0,02917
    =====================
    test Polypropylene metal: (pb000)

    ---real = 21,83 uf
    --- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00049
    --- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
    not a inductance or reactance
    = 0,00357
    =====================
    test Film and foil: (atrnetion because the value is not available in this format, I keep 2.0

    ---real = 1,97 uf
    --- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00008
    --- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
    not a inductance or reactance
    = 0,00689

    =======================
    =======================

    The step is value of ten of each step...

    Do you understand why film and foil is more superior and it is stupid to bybass by ... (what finally...)

    I hope this is report is clarified certains aspect of evaluation caps.


    Best regards at all

    jean

    : cheers :


    p.s.

    Because the very high end product is different by just a few light precision, the concept of Dc charge is probably better in theory.
    ecause My subtitution of high caps is appear to play full taste as little more power, maybe the Dc charge is change this aspect by more nervous and subtil details...

    creazy or not crazy yuk yuk yuk...


  12. #207
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    Thanks for the link Earl. At 3 bucks each in hand, they seem a bargin compared to a Supreme Silver/Oil.

  13. #208
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    DC Biasing Caps

    Hi Jean

    Solen explain for fast caps, the Dc charge is affecte the response but in worse side... the dc charge on film and foil is downgrade in regards standart circuit... TITAN shock because Giskar is expose a point of view of G.Timber where is consider the best is DC charge in Film and foil....
    - Really, the proof is in the pudding . One needs to experiment with these topologies ( DC Biasing, Cascading, Simple Bypassing, Symetrical Electrode Couplings ) before one can venture an opinion that's even half informed. Even after trying out all these topologies / it is still only opinion .

    - For Instance; with DC biasing, I find it impossible to determine if subtle details in the UHF realm have been "scrubbed out" or whether some very subtle resonances have been tamed down. Personally, I find it very hard to tell the difference between the two. On the other hand, in the HF & Midrange areas, the resonance control through Biasing is quite obvious to my ears.
    - Recently, I started a thread on "How Much DC bias Voltage" is best for UHF response. ( maybe in a year or two , it'll garner some DIY interest ).
    Anyways, as such when I DC Bias, I find it manditory to include bypass caps ( for a form of UHF restoration ) .

    OK !! fix your helmet...

    all caps is 2,2uF value....
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,.............
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I appreciate your involved efforts at establishing the DF & ESR numbers for various dielectrics. They do help to establish a basis on which to build a comprehension of why different capacitors sound , well,, different.
    - Unfortunately, they don't tell the full story from a musical point of view. " ie ; Painting by numbers " is not art / though a scientist might think it is .

    As Ian has mentioned , creating a "musical" sounding cap has everything to do with "balancing out" these following factors;

    (i) Physical Dielectric Ratios or ( Length vs Diameter of the material used )
    (ii) Winding Tensions
    (iii) Thicknesses used for either the dielectric or foil
    (iv) Type of Dielectric Used
    (v) Quality of Dielectric ( ie ; is it recycled Polypropylene or is it virgin stock ?
    (vi) Type of Foil ; is it Aluminum, Tin, Copper or Silver ?

    The step is value of ten of each step...

    Do you understand why film and foil is more superior and it is stupid to bybass by ... (what finally...)
    - No , I don't understand .

    - What I see here is an illogical adherence to a dogma based on a mantra of " Faster Must Be Better ". I've neither seen it proved, nor heard the implementation that "faster" equates to being "more musical" .

    - In my world; this dogma ( adherence to simple numbers ) unfortunately translates into at least "10 times less likely to evaluate systems through the use of ones' ears ".

    I hope this is report is clarified certains aspect of evaluation caps.
    From my perspective , it just reinforces my distrust of the use ( or misuse ) of numbers ( and therefore, most cap manufacturers' simplistic claims of sonic superiority ) .

    FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public .

    - From the "keeping it all constructive" point of view ; I'd advise that if you want to maintain an open attitude to these questions, then design & build an "open-architecture external crossover" that will readily accept the previously mentioned capacitor topologies (ie; DC Biasing, Cascading or ByPassing ).


  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public.
    I wonder how many crossovers were designed and tweaked using new capacitors and released this way, only for the owners to find their sound changing several weeks down the road? Hopefully, finished models underwent weeks/months of testing before going into production...

    John

  15. #210
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    "Originally Posted by Earl K
    FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public."

    I doubt you are going to see that any time soon. Burn in on capacitors is done for reliability only as far as Nasa or Mil Requirements is concerned. They are looking for manufacturing defects that are both part and lot related with provisions that if more than 5 or 10% of the lot fails it will not be used and is scrapped. These screening tests can jump prices on the caps to over 20X the unscreened part prices.

    Rob

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