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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #181
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    do you have perform test where new passive crossover build with and with out DC charge. ??? The improvement it is signifiant ???
    Y'know, Jean, at a certain point you just have to invest $20 in some capacitors, resistors, and a battery and try it yourself. Do it with your UHF section, perhaps, and apply your 5n instrumentation to the task of ascertaining whether or not there is a measurable difference. Then, you can tell US if it's hokus-pokus or not by your scientific deteminations.

    Oh, and don't forget to LISTEN for differences, as well....

    [Have you made and tested any Cat 5e tweeter cables yet? It's a 10-minute task.]
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  2. #182
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Y'know, Jean, at a certain point you just have to invest $20 in some capacitors, resistors, and a battery and try it yourself. Do it with your UHF section, perhaps, and apply your 5n instrumentation to the task of ascertaining whether or not there is a measurable difference. Then, you can tell US if it's hokus-pokus or not by your scientific deteminations.
    MMMMMMM...

    This is probably best idea...

    Thanks Zilch !!


    but the uhf is no polypropylene metal caps just film and foil...

    But I try a test...

    actually I check all reply in dc charge on this forum.... internal sea !!!
    I just finish to read tecnical paper of the s 5500 who the concept is explain...

    for cable I have a special contact who is possible to me to buy a aerospacial ac cable...

    6N copper with silver plated with ultra ptfe telflon sleeve... cable test pass mil, nasa and other instrumental spec.. mmmmmm ....

    but I keep in my mind the test of rj45 cable for acoustic

    for inductor solen litz cable is 4n copper (pretty good coil) and in special order I have precisely mesured coil, and 2 dip enamel bath for maximum stiffness and less variation of vibration...

  3. #183
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    About the Auricaps I heard back from Audience.

    "The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.

    The biasing and bypassing ideas were good for earlier, less refined capacitors. The Auricaps do not require bypassing or biasing because their performance is much better than previous capacitors."


    Ian

  4. #184
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.

    The biasing and bypassing ideas were good for earlier, less refined capacitors. The Auricaps do not require bypassing or biasing because their performance is much better than previous capacitors.
    Hi Ian, and thanks for report...


    Finnally It is a same speech of Solen....

    Modern fast caps is not necesity to bypass, cascade or biais circuit....

    in refer in my previous feeback on my talk of Solen , the speed response is problem for cheap or bad type of caps...

    BUt ....

    Solen recognize the film and foil is better than metal polypropylene... 10 faster... more linear response...

    It is shure of one point if you multiple point solder you drop much quality than cascade circuit is added...


    In my side I re-read entire post in regards of caps , biais, and cascade in this technical forum...

    In regards of Giskard is write on topic Capacitor, Greg Timber is consider the top is film and foil mounted in Biais circuit. Because it is impossible to build complete circuit in film and foil due to low value disponible, I'm appear the best is cascade with film and foil mounted in biais Dc charge...
    But the question is what is ratio ??? 10% film and foil, 1 % single of combination cascade ???

  5. #185
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    "It is shure of one point if you multiple point solder you drop much quality than cascade circuit is added..." Yes, Maybe, BUT, look inside most any vintage amp/receiver and what do you see if not MANY solder points. Do they "Suffer" for this many solder points? I don't think it's the number of solder points, but rather the QUALITY of each solder connection that causes the overall "Taste". Like a good recipe, "The proof is in the Pudding". Does it taste/sound "Good" to you or not? One way to find out, pop the cork, raise the glass, and see if you taste "Theory" or what's on your tongue. For me, blend/cascade/bypass seems to be worth a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Charge/coupled seems reasonable as well. Hocus Pocus Dominocus, when the rubber meets the road, you'll know if you're moving forward. If you can't tell, it doesn't matter anyway.

  6. #186
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rek50
    when the rubber meets the road, you'll know if you're moving forward.
    Hi Rek50,

    Well, defenitively right but pratical is not exclude theorie...

    The beauty of science is, if in theory the hypothesis is not good , you chance to result high quality = 0 %... but the inverse is not automatic

    The theory and the instrumental approach is to cut infinity possibility of build circuit to few option where in theory is appear the best !!!
    I work hard to find best feeack of good theorical recipe without re-invente the wheel... in this maybe I listen a superb result soon...

    Of course the pratical is the final test and instrumentation and theory is not better than pratice but is the result instrumentation or theory is not good it just impossible to realize a good pratice result...
    As you words, the science of rubber is applied before touch the road or you go in field...

    it is clear all soldering affect sound more solder, more destroyed original signal... Well best design is create efficience circuit with minimize part and solder.... Of course, in this exemple, the zobel circuit is added after couple of years because the correction is more than the negative effect on parts and solder insert on circuit... That is the delicate question here...

    So if you have option to put 4 caps with TT of 8 solder contact or 4 caps with TT of 2 solder contact work hard to go at 2 contact, the result is better... " the rubber is more stick on the road on this....

    Thanks for cue...


    Jean.

  7. #187
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    Cascading vs Bypassing

    Hi Jean

    But the question is what is ratio ??? 10% film and foil, 1 % single of combination cascade ???
    - Here's a link to some opinion on "cascading" capacitors.
    - This seller ( North Creek Music Systems ) does talk about the "cascade ratios" that work well with their line of capacitors.

    - FWIW & IME : Cascading and mixing different dielectric types is a lot like cooking / ie ; eventually one needs to get past the suggested stock recipes ( ratios ) / if one wants to please their own palate .

    - OTOH : Recipes are a great starting point . ( helping to create enough confidence to rollup the shirt-sleeves & turn-on the stove )


  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    About the Auricaps I heard back from Audience.

    "The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.


    Ian
    Well like all these things there must be different schools of thought..

    Although you would be stuffed if the actual value you were after was not available! Fortunately in their 200 volt range this is not really an issue.

  9. #189
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Well like all these things there must be different schools of thought..

    Hey Ian thanks again,

    Well, I'm not really happy by auricap. Mysterious, esoteric, and particulary non technical or spec information... If is too special , why do not explain what is what...

    I read auricap site www and is consider a couple type of caps... of course if you keep a type auricaps especcially build for bypass; it is bizarre to bypass this. but for big value auricaps suggest certain type for bypass...

    or I'm not good comprehension....

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&KMan
    Hey Ian thanks again,

    Well, I'm not really happy by auricap. Mysterious, esoteric, and particulary non technical or spec information... If is too special , why do not explain what is what...

    I read auricap site www and is consider a couple type of caps... of course if you keep a type auricaps especcially build for bypass; it is bizarre to bypass this. but for big value auricaps suggest certain type for bypass...

    or I'm not good comprehension....
    Well if you spent 20 years perfecting a design would you give away the secrets..NO WAY BABY!

    This applies to many technical products that find their way into consumer markets. More often a patent on the manufacture is used for protection but that is not always possible.

    Ian

  11. #191
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    "it is clear all soldering affect sound more solder, more destroyed original signal..." Well yes, Maybe, then again, there's solder EVERYWHERE. Recording Studio, Test Instruments, Amps/Receivers, Crossovers... I don't know if an "Original signal" can be defined. Science and theory is the best way to get "Close" to the desired result. If science were an absolute, we should have NO failures. But things fail everyday. Why? Poor design? Improper materials? Lack of understanding? My point is most everything is special in it's particular environement/use. To me, it's all compromise. What may sound/test good in one environment, does not mean it's absolute in all environments (Failures). Your/my amp/receiver may produce similiar results, but I think they have their own unique way, based on all the differences of all the components/solder points... Bottom line, use science/theory to come up with YOUR magic recipe to suit the combination of your taste/environment. Nothing is perfect, we try to get it close. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. How high is up? If everyone thinks the same, no one is thinking.

  12. #192
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    This applies to many technical products that find their way into consumer markets. More often a patent on the manufacture is used for protection but that is not always possible.
    Ian
    I recognize your point... and I'm shure this caps is "special" but look the level of information...
    Look information explain a "special" on other manufacture...

    sprague, jensen, Blackgate, philips, motorola, Frako, and other, the information.... I participate a big (and at certain point sterile) debate of the tin marine wire... And I try to expose the complexity of this simple link...

    Of course maybe is same of caps; and the rest of aspect of sound reproduction...

    The question is : The majority is consider the question with prejudice, and without "sreen analyse"... in this situation no possible to good comprehension of the phenomenon, non nothing. just try and ah or euh or yurk !!!

    Do you have feeling the cie ship satelite in space whit this argumentation ???

    So, it is possible evaluate objectively any cable and any caps; check complete spec. rise time, dispersion, leakage, etc, so if a cie is not expose this aspect, in general, is smell not good...

    the science is not sufficient for expose a state of art but is it necessary...
    impossible to create good cable or caps with bad spec...

    But I'm open mind and auricap have a reputation.

    IAN, I read many reply of question of caps solen on thread capacitor... All guy is consider the caps with sound metal....

    My experience is yes this caps is sound metal all the time before burning complete process, 5-6 weeks... Now I listen my 4343 with solen caps film and foil of high and uhf section and my speaker plugged with by copper-silver wired, and silver interconnect and caps is soldered with 4% silver solder... and the sound is not metal sound now... do you have try to push your burning time as this long period ??? maybe you have a couple of surprise...

    I tested many high end electronics and the real nature is appear after 6 week,
    many electronic or speaker is sound signature different before and after...
    The difference of very high end cie is consider this effect and pre-rod material... with power and heat for accelerate.

    Maybe it is interesting futur thread for crazy guy same me and you

    I'm go buy my half hundred caps this week and my air coils heptaLitz is ready, (special treatement 3 X dip enanel for cancel any variation due to vibration... and the guy is receive my special aerospace wire... so I'm prepare to build tis heretic Crossover...

    Jean...

  13. #193
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rek50
    Bottom line, use science/theory to come up with YOUR magic recipe to suit the combination of your taste/environment. Nothing is perfect, we try to get it close. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. How high is up? If everyone thinks the same, no one is thinking.

    Hi Rek50,

    Yes and no for me...

    I trie to catch the flavour on the recording, not create a added personnal taste...

    The problem of transparency is recreate any flavour of any artists with added taste... for me this is a real magic moment and if the artist is sound funtastic or dull , my system is expose with not add or remove, or remix...
    If you go in this way, yes tuff life, the link chain is delicate at any link so big effort, money, and work, for proper result... many cie is work hard to create and re-create a cie signature... Boston acoustic is work with 50 ingeneer and couple of million of instrumental lab and is create any speakers small or big, radio or high mutli amp system, all have a boston sygnature and cie is expose this aspect with satisfaction... this is good way ?? for guy who appreciate this type of sound yes, but for other who search more tranparene, is not good...

    Your point is really important because is touch the quest of all...

    but the first question is : what is you quest, specific flavour, or no flavour ???
    the second is: in this quest your taste it is change, your ear it is more educated or less educated...

    YIAH baby... realy big problematic... ontological problems associated with epistemological problems... the difficulty to definise what is exactly problem is a problem... all is on relation so very difficult to seat good parameter for forward...

    and because the problem is exponential critical by you foward , any subtil detail appear on your face with high end system, any subtil variation scrap the sound... ....

    ex: my freind is go visit a sky-walker ranch ( reference studio Lucas for THX)

    One of the theorical problem of the ingeneer is corrected the response frequency band with out equaliser because eQ scrap the phase... so the egeneer is modificade a big hose cable wire (mit) for create a closer correction as possible with B&W nautilus 801 (same as abbey road studio)...

    I hope is expose my crazy quest... Of course many consider my to nuts

    Jean.

  14. #194
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    Hi Jean

    You make some good points .

    My experience is yes this caps is sound metal all the time before burning complete process, 5-6 weeks... Now I listen my 4343 with solen caps film and foil of high and uhf section and my speaker plugged with by copper-silver wired, and silver interconnect and caps is soldered with 4% silver solder... and the sound is not metal sound now... do you have try to push your burning time as this long period ??? maybe you have a couple of surprise...
    - I'm not aware of anyone here using the Film & Foil Solens that you are using / we've all pretty much stuck with the metallized Solens. I believe there's an element of "Apples & Oranges" in your suggested comparisons. ( I've had Solen MPP types since 1990 so I think the "train has left the station" for me to ever really like them ( even DC-Biased ) / though I do use them in some of my mongrel recipes )

    tested many high end electronics and the real nature is appear after 6 week, many electronic or speaker is sound signature different before and after...
    The difference of very high end cie is consider this effect and pre-rod material... with power and heat for accelerate.
    - I agree, not many here give anything a 5 or 6 week "burn-in period". I know I don't & I probably should / though / I also think that DC Biasing accelerates the burn-in process somewhat .

    - I know this last Christmas was a great example of some form of "Bias" breakin. I was gone for 2 1/2 weeks. 2 1/2 weeks previous to my departure I had executed some significant changes to my DC Blocking caps architecture. The system was "off" during my absence though the 9 volt battery remained active in the bias circuit. Upon my return and immediately into the first song I realized the system sounded completely different than the way I had left it .
    The differences prompted a change ( a lowering ) of the crossover point chosen for the lowpass sections ( this part of my system uses an active crossover with tunable points ). The change was necessary since it seemed I had just gained about 1/2 an octave of lower midrange information coming out of my Altec 288 drivers. BTW ; the woofers crossover point hasn't been readjusted upward since then.

    - It would be very useful to know how to accelerate the 6 week "burnin" procedure without having to listen to/endure "peaky sounding" caps. What do you suggest as a solution ? ( How much heat & power ? )

    - Right now I'm starting a "new-cap" listening process ( since some surplus CCCP Metallized Paper in Oil / PIO caps have just arrived ) .



  15. #195
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    "I trie to catch the flavour on the recording, not create a added personnal taste..." YES, I'm with you, But what defines the flavour on the recording? The original flavour is the sum of the equipment/engineering/mixing/EARS, of THAT environment. You/I may catch what we feel is the original flavour, but THAT is our perception, in our environment/equipment/time and life phase. Problems, what problems?? HA. If you split a frog hair enough times, it ceases to exist. I would also like to know of a "Bench" burn-in method. Those CCCP PIO caps caught my eye/brain too. A report may be in order. This is FUN for me, where else could one discuss the Alchemy of sound?

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