Heh! The 2121 isn't that bad
Is there a special reason for using 3 MOhm Resistors for the bias voltage? Comon is 2.2 MOhm, right?
Heh! The 2121 isn't that bad
Is there a special reason for using 3 MOhm Resistors for the bias voltage? Comon is 2.2 MOhm, right?
No, you're right! It isn't that bad! It's all a matter of evolutionary changes.
Anything between 2.0 and 5.0 Mohms.
Hello again Mr Frankenstein Caps !!! ( in regards as your picts caps)Originally Posted by Earl K
Hi Jean
- No doubt he would be horrified from looking at my first picture .
<>
Well, I'm try me too to play a Doctor who create life in sound ()...
OK... OK... OK... I quiet now...
And I have a specials questions for you or for anybody is correspond to description below...
(i hope my english is not too poor so for help me I send schema...)
Start problem:
1 ---- caps loading suck transient or impulse response
2---- caps is signature coloration
3---- size of lead caps is too small for high power....
4--- caps and resistance is not corrolar to gauge wire of internal speakers..
Question 1 is easy resolve by biais dc charge....
====================================
Question 2 it is possibly resolve by charge Dc:
===============================
---- because the charge caps is illiminate signature load and unload ...
----- But maybe not, because signature is in the nature of material and not affected by constant charge...
-----But, Maybe the first factor signature is the size of lead of caps to non corrolar cable and restrict the power handling peak and other impulsion transient ???
See pict 0
If you put a small caps in bypass, you double automatiquely the capacity of power transfer of lead of caps by factor 2... and the power is more relevant to lower FRequency... so maybe the bypass produce more effect by adding lead size transfer power in regard of the nature of caps...
My hypothesis 1 , ( SEE PICT 1 ) I just multiple caps for corresponding to size AWG of cable look better bennefit for loose quality by multiple sodering or type of material caps ???
My hypothesis 2:
Maybe the nature of signature Caps is lead and nature of material.
so, I blend cascade of different type of caps and I put the number to corresponding of size , this hypothesis is resolve 3 problems in same time:
1--- consistent power transfert linear frecquency by multiple lead
2--- More fast power transfert linear frecquency by Dc Charge couple
3--- More transfert linear frecquency by blend type of Caps.
IT iS TOO CRAZY !!! or just perfect lesson of the Franckenstein of Caps
p.s. It is same story for resistance: multiple for lead equal size of internal wire... more corrolar density spectral at lower power...
Let me know your feeling great Earl and all...
Jean...
Hi Jean
- I'll give your hypothesis ( about wire size & a link to multiple capacitors ) some thought and respond tomorrow sometime (Wed.) .
- One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
<> Earl
Hello Earl,Hi Jean
how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
<> Earl
Thanks for evaluation of the question...
For Solen Caps It is too short time for final evaluation.... the complete broken time with crytalisation and harmonic open is 5 weeks... (SIC)
Probably I appear in frankenstein but my expertise in broken is part sound right after 2-3-week but sound drop and wide open just after 5 week full time open system... Actually the sound is just stabilised... the result is difficult to isolate only caps effect because I cancelled switch on back : the switch affect high section of crossover !!!
On other hand I change my 2 Diagram of 2405...and clean contact of my 2420...
So actually I have 10-15 % subjective upgrade more wide, space and minus details is more present.
The bloom is gone but the harmonic is not completely back... I feel more the limit of driver and age...
The low and med is run really better by cancelling the switch...
the 2420 is run really well but little less power average .2 db. (around -2)
Unfortunately the UHF is maybe not completely rodage or what but is run with L-Pad in full foward... (I start thread in this case...) but fairly bloum bloum reaction...
Exemple the 15 is more linear response in response of my instrumental material, but because is more linear is less coloration at certains frequency so the impact of 40 Hz (see my pict) is more punch before but finaly appear wrong... this is difficult to evaluate correctly the difference...
And this the med is more flat response and better easy to place L_Pad with istrumentation, the hight is more flat too but the ultra is less response on 20K at distance... the esponse near field is perfect but in distance the power drop fast ans proportionnal of frequency...
Completely weird: FRF is superbe, phase, distortion at free resonnance appear no problem an 2 kit react identical... it is possible to toast exactly in same value the caps ??? I dont know what is this: Solen is explain no directionnal of caps but yes in theorical, : maybe inverted direction and change value...
I completely dismantel the unit for clean any part of dust and rust ( the trick is pass a business card inside the gap and turn turn, the paper keep the oxidation with out any abrasif tecnique, it is a good method to polish electric point contact but for this type of hard metal it is impossible to sand with just paper... The big benefict is pull out the rust to restrict gap restraint the power of magnet transfert... I pass masking tape in regards of standart method installation and put diagram...
Same procedure for 2420... and run better...
I hope to to respond correctly in your question
N"B" You remain Cristian of Solen is annoucement new teflon caps but the start production is hold becasue for correlation of power range of caps the cie is put a little more big lead wire for build and unfotunately the response is not good... So it is go in my theorical position and confirm research in cable : the size of lead is critical for determining the balance linear transfert frecuency.
It is impossible to put 2 lead and one big is bad sound... do you have idea if you put multiple lea the sound propagation is respect and the power too so the best ot all word unless if you consider anther soldering parts...
Hi Jean
- Really ? I can usually tell in the first half-day if I like the direction that capacitor changes are taking the system .For Solen Caps It is too short time for final evaluation.... the complete broken time with crytalisation and harmonic open is 5 weeks... (SIC)
- Sometimes I think this "long breakin period" stuff is just another form of conjured-up marketing-speak, designed "out-last" or "fatigue the buyer" so that they'll forget about pursuing a refund for the purchase price of these expensive caps that don't liveup to their marketing hype. ( But that's just my sceptical nature talking ).
Wire Size & Caps ;
I view a lot of this stuff as I do plumbing ;
- reduce the aperture of the pipe and things will happen to the velocity of the flow.
- I can be easily convinced that all sorts of eddy currents ( from flow restrictions ) become audible when one tampers enough with the current ( flow ).
- Whether these sonic changes are good or bad in the final analysis is beyond my abilities to predict ( though with caps ,I'm at least devoloping a personal / coherent thought process / after a few years of effort )
- I haven't turned any of my attention to wire types, &/or sizes / so I have no personal experiences to share .
<>
hi and thanks for comments
I work in informatic in clouple of years...
Late years ago, the computer is not come with co processor math.
so One day my cie is give a coprocessor for gift and evaluation.
So I evaluate crunch value before and after... the result is clear...
But I happy with but the entire computer is little too slow for run pin ball machine software and at 2 ball the time frame is clear appear with easy discrenable frequency... Right ???
so after 3 week (in this case) my computer in bag!! one shot deal broken...
I keep 10 % more speed and consistenly day after day...
morality the theory of tunnel expose in Van den hul site is REAL !!! ... on limit or critical set-up the burning and polarisation of crytal trans electromagnetic is finnaly accomplish and power and micro vibration pop !!! appear brutally...
Of course 95 or 98 % of the result is already there but the flavour is the difference and critical material is process exposition difference...
Actually, the wave burning is start ultra stiff but retain in UHf, finannlay after couple of day the wave is start and blum, high pith is fluctuate, I check actually regullary with my instrumental type 0 grade laboratory material and days after days, i obligation to fix the fluctuation by compasati0on of L-Pad...
Exemple yesterday the sound appers really homogenus but dull, today it is very high pitch ( feeling the LF s dead ) shit !!! I start my RTA and put microphone, look phenomenon, and realise the UHF, because I chage the diagram is produce a very high harmonical in *K and untabilize the subjectif tonal balance...(2 dB) so I just down little bit my L-Pad and VOILÀ ... Wow bettter of yesterday but nothing stable...
I have critial environnement and I garantee this phenomenon is easy listemening, never electronic, cable metal, device is sound musical before complete burn-ing...
In Quebec this phenomenon is standart data and all saller who garantee the satisfaction include 6 week back refound for this reason...
I run professionnly the calibration of High end home theater and the real job in 2 time, just after finist installation and after 6-8 week burning rodage: I compare signature system and OHHHH realy big difference, many system bloom but certains product is inverse.
I burning, hign end level product many many time and this reality is all the time present else special product, same nagra, or Fm acoustic, studer, and very small elective product to pre-burn all conponend for match ... and this all electronic standart device is conform to spec shcematic and product exact reality... the aeropasce is run in same, and couple of very hight level. Tha t is the reason who paid a ordinairy resistance 3-10 higher price. because it is garantee to run perfect in specific canevas...
Well, actually my caps and soldering is not to desagree because the diagram, cable resistance and all other part is already burning, but the magic is not there...
But yes after manys manys experience it is possible to suppose the finish result but in this case some time I have realy surprise of conclusion...
ex, many bright system is put equilibrium tonal but some case i realize the final result is to bloom of finally is to bright!!!.
-----
For your analogy of plumber it is real and exact... I just look the replys on thread post caps and I feeling on regards of related specialist info the better is multiple caps at same value according to AMP is probably better approach to just bypass all the way any circuit. If you build a charge couple, probably more better time response appear... a couple of ms fast is bild the difference of one tone and multiple tone clearly distinst. OH Surprise 2 notes is where you listen 1 yesterday...
Of course the tecnologie of caps and material is probably affect little bit perfect integration... so maybe good selection of different time is create better linear integration or better bad integration...
Ex my 2405 is .6 ms more fast than time response of my 2420. I mesure with the new caps and the time is same but , becasue fuzz is less the time separation is more distinct: result feeling of bad phase listening...
Other case, because the crossover design is relatively not precise the double overlap appear in 8k so no surprise I have a high peek in 8 k and create an feeling to overpitch of high frequencys range...
the tonal balance is really critical... Why L-Pad is creat .2 db by step ??? because this is a critical aspect of balance tonal...
---- This is the reason to talk with many guys who build experimentation for try to isolate each variable... YIAH !!!
ex Plumber effect many high level standart build a start ground for minimise feeback effect: this one proof to interaction is exist and the type of set-up altered the final result !!!
I'm crazy B&KMan...
---- actually it is clear the upgrade is really more transparent but I dont know if is sound metal, to short time but I promise to write the final result...
Jean.
Parts Sources in response to PM
www.solen.ca
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/capretusd.pdf
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/indretusd.pdf
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/resistors.html
Note that some people don't like the sound of Solen, others do. Use whatever you want.
I promise to back ....- One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
<> Earl
The burning is not finish but I send pict of problrm of UHF AND HD delay...
I run manys investigation for more comprehension of problem and big chance the problem is the electrolitic and he inductance iron core creta delay by wrong conception and fatigue material...
It is shure the time reaction of hight frequency is more snap than standard driver and especialy in low driver...
I put FAST caps in HF and UHf and the problem is the set-up of old 3143 IS to fast
So I wait to complete parameter for built complete DC biais crossover and eventually integration of time phase for change complety...
Look pict , it is more clear than my worse english...
in order start letf to righ
1--UHF response, 2 UH response, 3 med & Low response...
Hi Jean
- About the middle of last month ( Apr. ) Guido & Giskard revealed that the audio signal on the way to the horn & tweeter network passed through the 52uf midrange capacitor. Did you explore these statements to find out if they applied to your network or not ? ( to do so, simply unsolder one 52uf cap and take note of what components won't reproduce any sound, ie ; what "turns off" . )
- If your horn & tweeter network legs are being funneled through that 52uf cap / you'll be waiting until "Hades freezes-over" for your new Solen Film & Foil caps to start sounding even OK. Believe me ; the sound of an old 52uf NPE will completely dominate/mask any quality resolution that might be residing in any quality 2uf capacitor. It's a simple matter of ratios .
- My point ? do as Gerard stated in the thread on Capacitors and get rid of those stock 52uf caps.
At the very least , wire around them the parts of the circuitry that feed into the compression driver & UHF portions of your networks.
- This critical info ( relating to HF & UHF resolution & sound quality ) was laid out in posts 54, 56, 59, 63 thru 71, & 79 of this thread. Please pay special attention to posts 71 & 79 / and follow the advice offered.
- By not dealing with this 52uf cap question , I believe any meaningful upgrade of your network ,,, "is still on hold " .
- & Yes, By all means, build some DC-biased networks according to the latest network info, as laid out by Giskard .
- I would also suggest building new networks into external boxes so that micro-vibrations can be more effectively dealt with .
- regarding Solens' "Fast-Caps" & your latest picture of "pulses". Actual, measurable, capacitor speed is never going to make those pulses merge into one. The physical offsets/distances between the voicecoils will always dominate a "pulse picture" no matter which capacitors are used in a circuit.
The 52Uf is in serial of med and parralle of high in according of my physical 3143... (It is error in schema or it is error on fabric build network .. but 2 network is build same...
(I'm not 100% shure: i'm not unsolder 52uf caps...)
Of course this my actual set-up is not very not ideal for explain the real signature of solen caps and many other old parts is more coloration domination...
My all works now is in regards of this way...
My feeling is the more fast caps , more easy this 4 pulses merge into one...
If you have a " slow caps" the error is less relevant. Of course the time response is not change but less clearly merge on slow caps than fast caps...
Maybe the "metal sound" is come because the fast caps expose more problem time delay... the phase integration error is more exposed and finnaly sound better (fast) and worse (bad blend)... Just is my little point at this time....
in general if you have a physical problem time integration and you put a parts more accurate you have better chance to ear more clearly the problem... this is I'm realize in this experience...
p.s. I'M not ready actually to start project of build new complete network: 2 or 3 questions is floating...
One: time delay alignment in passive crossover...
I put this problem in this forum and the question is no resolving... Actually I look the Patented U.S. site and found a couple solution exposed in this point... But it is difficult for me: language and elecetronic specialisation is 2 walls adds...
My documentation is expose clearly the phase problem and integration of 2 driver ... The .12 mS or 120 uS is phenomenon perceivable for problem integration phase... Actually I have 650 uS time delay !!! So it is clear, big problem in there...
YUP!! Multi-amp and active crossover is really better an this aspect... !!!
Thanks again EARL for you time in this question...
Jean.
Hi Jean
- I wouldn't let this topic of Time-Alignment ™ hold you up too much. I can time-align my active setup / & while it's nice / I don't feel its as important as a proper-sounding crossover network or amplifier or preamp or EQ or ,,,,,p.s. I'M not ready actually to start project of build new complete network: 2 or 3 questions is floating...
One: time delay alignment in passive crossover...
- I may be wrong , but I don't think there's anyone frequenting this forum who is able to execute a practical implementation of passive time-alignment "allpass" circuitry. I know I can't . And FWIW, with non-coincidental drivers, one can only achieve alignment in a very constrained plane . This really limits the usefulness of the technique .I put this problem in this forum and the question is no resolving...
- Even with full command of the language the technical paper is written in and a modicum of passive circuitry knowledge / the theory is always quite daunting .Actually I look the Patented U.S. site and found a couple solution exposed in this point... But it is difficult for me: language and elecetronic specialisation is 2 walls adds...
- There are some members here with 4343/4/5 based systems who have good to great ears. They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areasMy documentation is expose clearly the phase problem and integration of 2 driver ... The .12 mS or 120 uS is phenomenon perceivable for problem integration phase... Actually I have 650 uS time delay !!! So it is clear, big problem in there...
"They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areas"
Hello Earl
I couldn't have said it better. I have my 4344 clones in a second system that I don't use everyday. I have not had it turned on for a couple of weeks and just fired it up. Needless to say the 4344's are stunning! They have a clarity and sense of dynamics and ease that few can match. Everytime I don't use them for a while and fire them up it's always the same reaction. They do so much so well that any warts they have are just not worth fretting over and I like to just sit back and enjoy them for what they are. I look forward to seeing what Ian has up his sleeve but the bottom line is the design is so good that any improvement will be incremental and without that surperb driver set audible improvements would not be possible. I think many times we loose site of just how good our drivers are and without them none of these tweeks would be worth a damn.
Rob
Correct Robert....but you have top shelf capacitors in those 4344's.
You can talk the leg of a chair about this and that but they are what they are. I am amazed just many people have hung onto this model all these years.
I would be inclined to agree on the theory of the 4343, but as diy Guru's we can afford to go the extra mile on the execution with issues like vibration, capacitors, terminations (& fixed resistance pads after adjustment) and wire and not to mention driver and dias upgrades that were not even realised as a potential thread to audio quality when the 4343 was made (mid 70's).
About the 52uf capacitors I have sent and email to a higher level for qualification. From both the technical and historical viewpoint we really need to have this correctly documented on the Forums.
Apparently the 52 uF capacitor was used as protection if the system were to be switched to Bi-Amp as amplifiers from that day made a turn-on transient that could damage the compression driver diaphragms. In more recent times amps are well enough behaved that that part is no longer necessary.
Ian
Well, Each man go in way who is try to found the paradise...
I couldn't have said it better.
Rob
Actually I walk in limbo and time is stopped at:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=pall&s1='4421949' .WKU.&OS=PN/4421949&RS=PN/4421949
Jean.
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