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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #151
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi Jean
    - There are some members here with 4343/4/5 based systems who have good to great ears. They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areas


    Hey, I'm feel little joking tonight....

    Please try to rewrite this after look your post 102 where you buildt esoteric set-up caps...

    try to feel me little fuzzy man ...

    My hypothesis is your create a multiple path but in this you confuse any signature but you create in same time big pipe who the signal is no compressed... I looks 12 caps (2 little and 10 standart lead size wire) spagetti torso... do you shure it is not a create hazard concact ???)

    In according in my previous posts My feeling is the size of path (lead ize wire in AWG) affect signal....

    So I works actually to integrate this concet to signature caps for created just the less network possible...

    OK OK OK ... I just read this cheap reply for explain each man is choice where is fix attention...

    A+ And I promise I send pict of schema (maybe this week...)

    : cheers:


    Jean.

  2. #152
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    Hey, I'm feel little joking tonight....


    Me Too

    ( I'm into a very heavy work schedule that prevents me from any back & forth banter but ) ;

    I "can invent" some merit for the multipath UHF approach, especially when one considers the dedicated usage of the CD player as the playback mechanism.

    Heck , the reconstruction filters in these players start with a painfully small sampled portion of the original analog wave form . What is finally spit out is just the DACs' "best-guess interpretation" of where it "thinks" the UHF waveform was likely headed.

    So, who am I to complain about a group of capacitors that also invent their own reconstructed UHF waveform ?


  3. #153
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    So, who am I to complain about a group of capacitors that also invent their own reconstructed UHF waveform

    You joke is bust my caps !!!



    OK seriously,

    For you and all,

    I analyse the circuit of 3145 and version DC charge coupled modified by big courtesy of Mr Giskard. After tons of questions, Giskards is explain the DC charge is cancelled the time loading caps responsable of big part of the " signature caps." So it is not necessary to put
    4 x 20 uF + bypass for create prime transient... the Dc charge is preload the caps... No time delay , no loose impulse and transient...

    If I have good comprehension of the phenomenon.....

    Well, After this, the time of reaction transition is really more small but is it sufficiently small for produre perfect transient response ??

    1---- The 160 Uf on DC charge is more fast than 4 x 20uF + bypass caps...

    (this is create maybe sufficiently a couple of time faster (in uS) to blind the problem time delay... my reading material expose clearly, more fast caps and low Inductance coil resistance, more fast response and minimise the time delay in inter-drivers... (if I save a couple of .10 Ms = Reallllllly Happy succes )

    Anyway each 0.10 Ms save is a improvement...



    2---- If the signature is again present, normally the type of caps is detectable on listen program.... Wright ???

    3---- So the great question, In DC biais, the response circuit it is sufficiently fast and transparent for ocult the signature of caps... Or The difference is, on big part, cancelled put the nature of caps is no completely blind ....

    ------it is a improvement to I put silver caps or other very-high technologie : auri-caps, Dynamite, jensen, Back-Gate and
    AudioNote Caps on Dc-biais ???

    And finnally, the addition of multiple caps in serie and parrallle with bypass on on circuit based on DC charge it is add instability and decrease the iadvantage to buidt fast high value caps via Dc charge biais ???


    Thanks again for your time ....


    Jean....

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Apparently the 52 uF capacitor was used as protection if the system were to be switched to Bi-Amp as amplifiers from that day made a turn-on transient that could damage the compression driver diaphragms. In more recent times amps are well enough behaved that that part is no longer necessary.
    It has to stay as part of the bandpass for the 2121 when run in full passive mode though.
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  5. #155
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    It has to stay as part of the bandpass for the 2121 when run in full passive mode.

    WOW !!! pict is a 1000 words ....

    GREAT JOBS Giskard !!!


    Finnally the 52 uF is modified the transition of med to HF ...

    I'M not tottally shure but my crossover is same as exemple 1 :
    the 52 uF is only for med


    -------- but the 4Uf of HF is control the UHF too ------

    the line in of UHF is in connected after 4uF...

    Because your set-up is already, it is big jobs for you to expose simulation of this situation ????

    Manys thanks...

    btw what is your sofware simulation...???


    jean.

  6. #156
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    I'm not sure what you mean. Show me on this schematic:
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    I'm not sure what you mean. Show me on this schematic:
    (Ah... the second language restriction ...)
    in according on schematic 3143, I mesure and retrace the signal path and my first conclusion is the 4mF of HF is work for UHF too...
    (see pict) it is possible ???
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  8. #158
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    Ok, first off. I like the chalk board snap dude. Let's all get one!

    There should be a 1.0 mH choke to ground between your 4 uF and 13.5 uF.
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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Ok, first off. I like the chalk board snap dude. Let's all get one!
    There should be a 1.0 mH choke to ground between your 4 uF and 13.5 uF.
    Well, Your are the king (again and again)....

    My confusion is come of the choke reaction...

    (...)
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi Jean
    - One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
    <> Earl
    ----------------------- BINGO ----------------------







    THE RODAGE IS DONE

    ouf !!! what a stress for my ear...

    In same story at each time rodage... 5-6 week later in one moment Boum the sound is drop and all harmonisation on each driver is fluid..

    WOW the solen caps is definitively a big upgrade... I'M solder caps with 4% silver
    and the level of finest is unbeliveble .... the noise floor is more down and the details is extremely articulate with really finest detais but not signature detect... the metal sound is completely out, in classical, chamber , wood instrument, voice, rock, jass, the sound reveal the nature of instrument and the finest of player, YOYOMA is just more faboulus....


    I really exicting by next improvemnt to change completely entire crossover...

    I hope this feeback is relevant for you.... do not hesitate to ask for more details...


    Thaks everybody for give all infos


    Jean.

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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard

    HEY HEY Mr. Giskard, (and all)

    I continue my analysing of your schematic 3145 DC charge of your courtesy build and expose in this forum...

    I have a few questions (again _ )

    ---1----

    I feeling good improvement possible design by put a bypass with SM 0022 or sm 0010 ( Solen ) Caps for PB big value caps...

    --It is important to put polystyrene caps or film and foil is superior ???

    (I read many replys on manys thread who caps related (especially in 4344 MK2) and the best of the best is appear in DC + Bypass right ??...


    ---2---

    I remark nothing Zobel correction impedance appear in this schema...

    It is better upgrade to put zobel circuit in each driver for maintain accuracy response in regards of impedence??

    (My feeling is the recent technology is include zobel...)

    Please, What your feeling of this point ???

    ------

    Thanks at all...

    Jean.

  13. #163
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    1. Metallized poly main caps could very well benefit from film & foil poly bypass caps but you'd have to check that for yourself. None of these damn things are created equal. Some of the metallized polys are actually better than some of the film & foil polys. Basically you have to find a combination that works for you. I'd start with biased Solens as that is what JBL is currently raving about. It doesn't mean they're the best or anything like that, it just means that they've been implemented and have "passed the test".

    2. Adding conjugates or Zobels to 30 year old filter designs has the potential to do more harm than good. The best way to make your decision though is to add whatever you want and note the results. You might want to just model all the drivers and start with a new filter design using modern software such as Leap Crossover Shop. I'm a bit surprised no one here has done that yet.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    I'm a bit surprised no one here has done that yet.
    Thanks again for good reply...

    well In my concern, actually I build my teeth on this domain and I feelind your work on Pspice software...

    In time I'm progress in deep wood of world of crossover , I realize the level of difficulty, integration design and the different path choose by cie and particular home specialise...

    ---I understand in this way the big importance of DC circuit.
    ---the nature of caps and the bypass...
    --- I realize the good circuit with stantard good electronics parts kill esoteric part in "poor" design circuit.).

    --- I'm understand the interest of cie is produce same quality for cheapest price and rarely the project is without money object... (this is one of the beauty of JBL project )

    Well, I realize the rebuild procject crossover is very more big effrt and time conssumming and I'm not shure the peoples is have luxury and pleasure to run

    in this way... For my part , it is integrate on my philosophy, great work great result...

    I try to pay for but I realize the level of indecence of incompetence around me so I go in the end to do it yourselft...


    Anyway thanks Giskard for all..

    Jean...

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    1. Basically you have to find a combination that works for you. I'd start with biased Solens as that is what JBL is currently raving about.
    HEY HEY HEY GREAT MEMBERS...

    I'M works hard to integrate all hints and tricks of this great communauty and I submit for " evaluation " my first version of LF of the new design NetWork...

    I hope I'M not too out-of-field...

    I'M integrate notion of:

    ---1 max low dcr of inductance
    ---2 DC Charge
    ---3 Bypass
    ---4 Blend type caps.
    ---5 1% undervalue caps (in general) is corrected by cascade low value...

    Anybody comments are welcome ???


    Jean.
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