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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #301
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Hey hey hey It me again (yuk yuk yuk )

    Well I just finish a painful technical tips evaluation... Of CAPS vibration...
    pffff....... I hope you keep this very very expensive




    (i hesitate to create a new thread fo this but many info is in regard of modification 4343 project spirit so I run this)

    (And it is a cherry for any guys is arrival here... )

    =======================================


    I perform a impac modal response to mesure the spectrum response (FRF) and amplitude response of vibration of 3 set-up caps... and expose the result at your eyes judgement...

    1--- I tarap firmy (limit to broken tarap) a metal can caps phillips on thin 1/8 inch clawboard (I dont know what is tecnical term). I put the accelerometer on top of caps and I slamHammer impact instrument into board...

    2--- Same on 1 but I put in thick clawboard (1/4 inch.)

    3--- Same but mdf 3/4 inch...

    4--- same but in my big Network 3/4 mdf plus rock (and eventually sand...)

    I send this the pict of 4 piece to expose at my hammer....
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  2. #302
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    OKAY

    For interpration correct it is important to keep in your mind the dB scale is log Scale so 3 dB is look cheap but it is big real difference so I have shap shot result in lin and dB presention so look carrefully the appelation on pict...

    Look the vertical scale too !!! Because I have not idea before perform test what is the max level , I expose a couple difference level so for cross link check carrefully the y scale...

    finnally it is very tuff (in particular it is not my language) to expose simply a ton and complex information and interpretation relation... so i hope your help to decode my english...




    ======================

    first result is thin plate board fixing caps versus thick plate board...

    one pict is lin result and other is same but in dB scale ...
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  3. #303
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    ???????????????????????????????????

    The thick layer is induce more energy vibration than thin and appear worse than thin.... why ?????

    My hypothesis is the thick is produce vibration but sensitive mass diff. so the energy vibration is not controled and more power than thin board...

    This is a perfect exemple of the common feeling is run opposite scientific result.... So as this peak fr your caps is extremely exicting and produce tribo electric, or other distortion, additive, signature... Your caps is sound wood...


    next is comparison of thickboard versus the big network response... No surprise the mass and composite layout is cut natural frq. of each material... and distribute energy more equally...

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  4. #304
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    ok next is more complicated info and suppose more background theorical...

    The pict I expose the time disipation of impluse... This info is critical for articulation and deterministic working bkgnd noise generate by too long time slope... According one note musica come realy close to next and if your time dissipation is more than this time you listen new note and the echo of the first... If it is musical nature of harminic and musical alnguage it is not a language of reproduction... because you add echo material on electrical music... produce more floor level and confusion in electrical and acoustical signal ....

    If you look next pct the thin board expose long time dissipation and push up the noise floor .... In big net the time dissipation is fast and expose lower noise floor when next note is come... so better articulation and extend subjectif dynamic... mmmmmmmmm


    Jean
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  5. #305
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    In regards of previous commentary,
    just componend is abbility to broken natural response material

    add thi point add the law of the mass and you put more fast time dissipation and more lower peak, more linear response...

    one pict is lin and other is linear scale...

    Jean..
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  6. #306
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    After all you hare won to look the size of BIG NET work...

    55 Lbs pound at this pict (more double with sand....)




    Jean.
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  7. #307
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Of course any comments are welcome




    Jean.

  8. #308
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    Jean ; like I said before ,,,
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    This is getting a bit messy .
    - I've only really corrected the HF & UHF sections .

    - I've inserted Giskards version2 jpg showing his "modified N3145 equivalent circuit" ( HF & UHF sections only ) .

    - I've made the corrections to some capacitor values ( in red ) so that they more closely mirror Giskards "non-biased" version . I can't get exact values without totaly reworking your existing values . As a result , in one postion where a value of 5.6uf is called for , I have only gotten the values to 5.5uf .

    - I'm not sure what you'll want to do with this information.

    -You've increased the net capacitance at 3 points within the Horn circuit. - You might want to changeout what you bought for the proper values ( not really an expensive proposition with Solens of this size ) .

    - On the other hand , these smallish differences might not be that "over the top" to the end result since they are within the typical stated tolerances for most capcitors .

    - Someone with Crossover SIM software could tell you that info / unfortunately I don't have any ..

    - I hope to study the midrange and woofer circuits tomorrow .



    EDIT Oh,, the "G" = some value , refers to "Giskard" ( for those wondering ) .
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  9. #309
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    Hi Jean

    - Here are my most recent corrections to your schematic .

    - Maybe your substitution of the 20 ohm & 15 ohm resistors for the (2) 39 ohm resistors was just another "cut & paste error" ( divorced from what you actually bought ). I don't know, you'll have to tell us what you are actually wiring up .

    - I've also divided out the (2) biased 20 uf caps in the woofer portion of the network . The original N3145 has the original 10uf after the Zoebel (10 uf equates to the 2, 20uf caps placed end to end, in the biased setup ). The 10uf was not expressly included as part of the large capacitance shunting located after the 5.4mH inductor so I wouldn't move its' location. I don't know if this truly makes much of a difference. Maybe someone with some Network SIM software might be able to lend a hand . ??
    - Were you given explicit directions to combine these two areas of capacitive reactance into one ?

    - I have also included the recommended polarity conventions for this N3145 network ( at least for the woofer & midrange driver ). The horn and the tweeter sections use the same polarity as the 2121 midrange. I suggest you stick to this official convention.

    - I've included ( again ) Giskards' N3145 network workup since it was buried in the early pages of this thread .( As far as I'm concerned ) "it" is the master template for a 4-way "DC-biased" network using these components . You should print it out, review it, and then figure out "where & why" you have deviated from it ( in a few spots ) . You should do this before firing up your network ( or burying it into sand ) or measuring it's performance or anything else I can think of at the moment .



    - Oh , once again, here is Giskards' parts' list ( specifically for Solen parts ).
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  10. #310
    Senior Member B&KMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi Jean

    - Maybe your substitution of the 20 ohm & 15 ohm resistors for the (2) 39 ohm resistors was just another "cut & paste error" ( divorced from what you actually bought ). I don't know, you'll have to tell us what you are actually wiring up .

    IT IS MY MISTAKE COPY PASTE (...)

    - I've also divided out the (2) biased 20 uf caps in the woofer portion of the network . The original N3145 has the original 10uf after the Zoebel (10 uf equates to the 2, 20uf caps placed end to end, in the biased setup ). The 10uf was not expressly included as part of the large capacitance shunting located after the 5.4mH inductor so I wouldn't move its' location. I don't know if this truly makes much of a difference. Maybe someone with some Network SIM software might be able to lend a hand . ??

    I assuming the zobel correction is most close as possible in driver for best match inpedence, I keep in my hand the , futile maybe, position is inverse so i decide to put 20Uf before... but I recognize I play in apractice-sorcier

    - Were you given explicit directions to combine these two areas of capacitive reactance into one ?

    - I have also included the recommended polarity conventions for this N3145 network ( at least for the woofer & midrange driver ). The horn and the tweeter sections use the same polarity as the 2121 midrange. I suggest you stick to this official convention.

    you absolutely right I just exposed the electrical polarity not post speaker... I realize the confusion here

    - You should print it out, review it, and then figure out "where & why" you have deviated from it ( in a few spots ) . You should do this before firing up your network ( or burying it into sand ) or measuring it's performance or anything else I can think of at the moment .

    I have a copy and check check and re-check

    in the works 100 comeback.... (...)


    MY DEEPER THANKS FOR FOUND THIS ERRATUM... (...)



  11. #311
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Well it looks like this thread died .

    Jean, I am putting a basic new equivalent network together soon .

    Have you completed your charge coupled version yet?

    The Doctor.

  12. #312
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Well it looks like this thread died .
    All good things must come to an end...

    Widget

  13. #313
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Jean is testing, no doubt.

    The process will require considerable knob twiddling and head scratching.


  14. #314
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Yes its absolutely annoying when nothing goes according to plan.

    No doubt he will hear from Jean soon enough.

    In the mean time I put this together...I do believe it works but no doubt someone around here will disagree...They always do.

    I played Floyd " The Wall Live in Berlin" last night and it was quite satisfactory.

    Now for the finishing touches. Some CNC routing for a nice front face plate perhaps!

    The Doctor
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  15. #315
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    The business of making audiophile passive crossovers is interesting and fun.

    I am not suggesting the above is best practice but it is a means to an end and was designed around some very specific requirements to hot rod a 4343.

    Aside from the whole ethereal and romantic aspect of soa parts there's the mechanical side of the job. That's the hard part. The layout was a logical expression of the schematic. The whole thing must be mechanically stable and endure delivery and a lifetime of use.

    It must also be a turnkey solution for the user and so special attention has been given to interfacing terminations and installation instructions.

    I made the terminals from pure copper sheet on nylon stand offs, silver solder, some teflon 16 gauge wiew and your on your way.

    The material is 3mm plate aluminum and 1 inch square corner posts milled in the lathe. The whole thing is tapped and bolted with M4 screws.

    Simple in concept but difficult to execute well.

    It reminds me of a Valve radio, deceptively simple but rather a black hole for time. . Never mind its all fun. That's why you would never see this as a commercial product.

    The Doctor

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