I must be living right ......

[hjames]

See, Mr Seawolf - the answer to the problem is ... buy some more audio gear!

[SEAWOLF97]

See, Mr Seawolf - the answer to the problem is ... buy some more audio gear!

Well , yes , but...

in this last 2 weeks I've bought the Pioneer L1000 , marantz 2385, marantz TT , marantz 920 speakers , Sony MD and a pending purchase next week.

running out of storage space.

mebbe I'll just put speakers 'round the dining table and use them for chairs ?

(gotta get out on the bike ...records are cheaper than gear, when you are in a buying mode)

[SEAWOLF97]

so I love the big Walsh F's just as much as the 250ti's ...(for the same reasons, but different sound)

they have been doing HT duty and rarely used ....the back plate says 4/3 ohms ..
I think thats normally 4 and sometimes 3 ...makes more sense that 1 1/3 ohm ?

lately the Denon AVR has been going into PROTECTION (:shock mode when I turn up the volume..figured thats its having trouble with the load ...so ...I reinstalled the
AR 428ps's in the HT (they arent very musical, but good for movies) ...pulled the 4410s out of the backside of the LR and moved the Walsh's out there ....the protection mode problem has ceased.

They are 18x18x44 and a tight fit but WOW !! I had forgotten how good they are -esp with my add in titanium tweets- most likely will share music time with the 250ti's 50/50

[Akira]

I once heard a pair of these speakers when I was IRONICALLY 22 years old.
The owner, a friend's father was a music teacher and a classical buff. We played 'Cars' Best friends girl friend, and I thought they sucked...then went on to brag about my L100's.
"Ah to be 22 and so enlightened."
Now to be 50++ and realize I missed a chance at an education--such is life.

Just curious, but with today's advanced speaker technology could the original performance not be much improved. After all the strength of the speaker is in it's design concept. The limitation of the speaker is the driver technology of 35 years ago.

[SEAWOLF97]

I once heard a pair of these speakers when I was IRONICALLY 22 years old.
The owner, a friend's father was a music teacher and a classical buff. We played 'Cars' Best friends girl friend, and I thought they sucked...then went on to brag about my L100's.
"Ah to be 22 and so enlightened."
Now to be 50++ and realize I missed a chance at an education--such is life.

Just curious, but with today's advanced speaker technology could the original performance not be much improved. After all the strength of the speaker is in it's design concept. The limitation of the speaker is the driver technology of 35 years ago.

Akira ...as with any speaker they can suck depending on "............".( but really arent placement dependent) ..they DO need lots of power and are a difficult load to drive... Most 22 y.o.s like L100s.

If you read the whole thread, you'll see that reviewers & forum members that have heard mine do not share that view....only after picking up the 250ti's did I realize that the high freqs were down a bit ...thats why I added a crossover/filter and a titanium HF to supplement the Walsh driver ...they are truly different and very coherent ...member Magnepan is headed over this way soon and has a golden ear ...he's really enjoyed them in the past and we'll see if he likes my enhancement also.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=23671

(most JBL speakers are based on technology older than 35 years)

If ever in Portland...look me up...will be happy to demo.

[jcrobso]

Is that so many of the really good things are the simple things that still work today. Many of them have just had a lot of improvements over the years.
The basic design of the loud speaker is very old, but look at the improvements.
I remember the late 1950s and all of the new exciting car engines that were going to replace the piston engine. The Wankel was only one that got into production and slowly has faded. Here we are in 2009 and the piston engine still rules, but look at the improvements!
JBL took the basic design of the speaker and refined it.

[SEAWOLF97]

Is that so many of the really good things are the simple things that still work today. Many of them have just had a lot of improvements over the years.

First flown commercially in 1970, the Boeing 747 held the passenger capacity record for 37 years....they are still the workhorse, gradually being phased out now..

ever notice how many 43xx lovers are on the forum ? How old are they ?


The Walsh driver is still not widely understood ...Infinity had a version , German Physiks and Ohm are still producing it

[cosmos]

so I love the big Walsh F's just as much as the 250ti's ...(for the same reasons, but different sound)...

I have owned Ohm Fs since new (I used to sell them while in college). I also have owned 250Ti-LE until recently and many other JBLs. I just have a thing for the JBL live sound.. I also sold JBL in HS and college during the 70s. Frankly, I just have a thing for speakers and own way too many including electostats (KLH Nines and Martin Logans), good horns and dynamic speakers. I say all of this to preface the statement: "Ohm Fs are my favorite low to medium volume speaker."

Simply, when they are working correctly, they are an incredible speaker. However, the years have not been kind to Ohm Fs. The weight of their heavy cone causes the spider to sag and of course the foam surround deteriorates as does the foam damping inside the cone. The sag causes the Voice Coil to drop taking it out of optimum alignment and reduces cone excursion. The impact on sound is huge. If one auditions Ohm Fs in this condition, they would think any positive statements ever made were complete heresy. Unfortunately, I believe all original Ohm Fs would now be in this condition unless they have been repaired.

There is a guy that claims to be able to re-cone or repair existing cones with new surrounds and foam in the Cleveland area, but he is also ridiculously expensive. I have attempted to help the spider by adding spring wire and have replaced the surround, but I cannot get my drivers back to their original luster.. They are a casualty of age. Perhaps one day, there will be an answer. Until then, they sit unused with the cones inverted to reverse the weight of the sag.

pulled the 4410s out of the backside of the LR and moved the Walsh's out there ....the protection mode problem has ceased.

They are 18x18x44 and a tight fit but WOW !! I had forgotten how good they are -esp with my add in titanium tweets- most likely will share music time with the 250ti's 50/50

I can't follow the movements you made. Did you add titanium tweets to the Fs or are you talking about some other speakers? If you did this to Ohm Fs because of rolled off highs, I'd venture to say as much as I hate to, that your Ohm Fs, even though repaired, may be in the beginning stages of the sag. Highs are the first to go. You might consider adding some spring wire now in hopes of helping them now...

Further, always run Ohm Fs with a steep low cut filter. This speaker will pulse to signals less than 5 Hz. IMO, this excursion, while unneeded and not beneficial, causes to problems on the F: 1. added strain on the spiders and 2. IM distortion of the cone from these violent pulses.

[SEAWOLF97]

Cosmos ....glad to add another name to the F appreciators list (me & tim are lonely)....I dont listen at really loud levels and the F's will go louder than I need..mine were supposedly rebuilt before I purchased , but I think that it only involved the surrounds...they look fine and the spider shows no visible sag..

the HF response is about what I wud expect from any speaker of that era ...they are rated at 35-17k , although I think they go lower than 35 .... my quick & dirty mod involved a small 2 way AR speaker....took the crossover and nipped off the LF leads , connected the titanium tweets and vampired the network in on the bananas where signal comes in on the back of the F driver...they now have a highend sparkle, with no permanent mod and easily reverseable.

Are my F's up to new factory specs ? I doubt it , but they are still most enjoyable and I love their imaging....did talk with that guy who rebuilds the drivers, he does a very thorough job , but at $1250 per driver...will just enjoy them "as-is"

[cosmos]

Cosmos ....glad to add another name to the F appreciators list (me & tim are lonely)....I dont listen at really loud levels and the F's will go louder than I need..mine were supposedly rebuilt before I purchased , but I think that it only involved the surrounds...they look fine and the spider shows no visible sag..

Glad to be in the pack..

I agree, they get loud enough for me in most instances.. I drove them with an SAE 2400 which is about 300 wpc into 4 ohms.

Check the spider with a straight edge.. and I'd still be tempted to put some form of helper spring in there..

the HF response is about what I wud expect from any speaker of that era ...they are rated at 35-17k

If you can hear 17K, you're probably doing better than me.. When they were working 100%, I don't recall anyone ever saying they were rolled off.. Further, be careful about generalizing speakers made in the 70s as rolled off.. There were some pretty stellar HF speakers in that group including ESS AMT line, which we often compared heads up with the Ohms...

Are my F's up to new factory specs ? I doubt it , but they are still most enjoyable and I love their imaging....did talk with that guy who rebuilds the drivers, he does a very thorough job , but at $1250 per driver...will just enjoy them "as-is"

It's been a while, but as I remember his prices, they were over $5K for a pair..?? I could be wrong... I'll need to revisit that too..

BTW, are there any horizontal crinkles in the titanium band (upper metal band on the cone) on yours? It should be smooth with the exception of vertical creases.

[SEAWOLF97]

Check the spider with a straight edge.. and I'd still be tempted to put some form of helper spring in there..

If you can hear 17K, you're probably doing better than me
BTW, are there any horizontal crinkles in the titanium band (upper metal band on the cone) on yours? It should be smooth with the exception of vertical creases.

OK...can you provide details on the piano wire extra suspension ?

did a sweep test only a little while back..can get 13k and sometimes 14k

no horizontal creases in the titanium

Had some "me time" today ..home alone..put on my MD copy of the DVD "Eagles Farewell Tour Live from Melbourne" ....sounds better than many studio albums....all I can say is FugginAwesome !!

which leads me to the last question....I bought a BGW 750D (375wpc 8 ohms/450wpc into 4 ohms ) for the Walsh's and they were fine....but then replaced them with the 250ti's...daisychained from the 750D is a BGW 250d
(100/8ohm..125/4ohm) and thats the one currently pushing the Walsh's..

Its an easy swapover to change out the speaker leads to the amps...wud the 250ti's be happy on the 250D's 100wpc ? I know the Ohm's are even awesomer on the 750D.

Here is part of the email from Dale Harder

"Yes, I do full rebuilds on the drivers including the 30+ upgrades. If the old cones can be salvaged the price is $1,250 per driver. If the cones have been damaged from others attempting to rebuild them or being overdriven, then the price id $1,750 each. I also rebuild and modify the cabinets."

[cosmos]

OK...can you provide details on the piano wire extra suspension ?

There isn't any right or wrong here.. I just created a couple wires with some resultant up pressure about midway across the spider. It's not enough to keep the spider and cone from moving.

Oh, I almost forgot.. a big mod for these was replacing the internal wiring as it was said to reduce the high end due to its inductance.. I usually just jumped to the connections on the driver frame. Try that and see if your high end response improves.

no horizontal creases in the titanium

That's good! Over excursion of the cone causes the coil to bottom out (up in this case) and causes the creases I asked about.

Had some "me time" today ..home alone..put on my MD copy of the DVD "Eagles Farewell Tour Live from Melbourne" ....sounds better than many studio albums....all I can say is FugginAwesome !!

LOL, they are nice...

which leads me to the last question....I bought a BGW 750D (375wpc 8 ohms/450wpc into 4 ohms ) for the Walsh's and they were fine....but then replaced them with the 250ti's...daisychained from the 750D is a BGW 250d
(100/8ohm..125/4ohm) and thats the one currently pushing the Walsh's..

Its an easy swapover to change out the speaker leads to the amps...wud the 250ti's be happy on the 250D's 100wpc ? I know the Ohm's are even awesomer on the 750D.

The short answer is that the 250Ti like power too.. and using a speaker on an amp with too much power is never a bad thing.. It's only bad when you drive a speaker too hard. I have stated for years and still maintain the belief that too big of an amp is far less dangerous than too small. I think there is even a JBL white paper about that very subject. Most speakers and amps generally show some signs of distress before they inflict damage.. In the case of the Ohm F bottoming out, its a very loud thump, but before that the sound starts to deteriorate.

[SEAWOLF97]

Oh, I almost forgot.. a big mod for these was replacing the internal wiring as it was said to reduce the high end due to its inductance.. I usually just jumped to the connections on the driver frame. Try that and see if your high end response improves..

I had some email conversations with John Strobeen, Ohm's president, and he had recommended replacing the wiring.....so I opened the cabs and pulled all that old junk wire out....then made a 4x6 cutout in the riser skirt to insert a thinner panel on the backside to cover the cutout...drilled it out and installed gold 5 ways....then soldered in the best wire I had and allowed enough to reach the driver...then put on the best gold bananas that I cud find..

I did hear a pair NEW in 1977 and while its hard to A/B a 32 yo demo with todays sounds ....well...you know......

HERESY to follow ..avert eyes if you are a true, cant stand anything else, JBL fan.... ...
(highlite to read)..

had a guy come over to buy foams today and he asked abt all the speakers..I demo'ed the 250ti's and Walsh's on the same program material , same preamp settings..he preferred the Ohm's...said they sounded "fuller"..whatever that means ?

[SEAWOLF97]

so, if anyone followed this thread, you will know my Walsh odyssey.

I started with the Ohm Walsh F's. Still have them. Then the Walsh 2xo (extended output , 8 inch driver) sold those.

Today I dragged home the F2's . Same cabinet as the F's, but different driver (12 inch) . 1970 vs. 1990. They are in superior condition. Traded with a guy who had bought them from the original owners widow. We demoed them, sound fantastic. Traded straight across for the 4311-b's.

The F's last price in 1984 was $4k+. In the 90's the upgraded driver came out. It could be retrofitted into the F's cab. You'd send in the old drivers + $1.6k and they'd send back new drivers and tents to put into your cab.

So I'm a happy camper , but now the Control Monitors are gone

http://ohmspeaker.com/legacy-products/f2/

pix from seller:

[gferrell]

I always wanted to hear a pair of those. Almost bought a pair a few years back but something came up. Enjoy and let us know how they sound.