Seawolf,
Can you not take jokes? Apparently not!
Calm down.
-Storm.
Seawolf,
Can you not take jokes? Apparently not!
Calm down.
-Storm.
Mr W.Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
If you ever get to Portland , we'll hook up and demo them. heck. I'll even buy lunch , you've helped me out so much already.
Just swapped the Denon for the Marantz powering them. Now they really sing. I've never heard big JBL 43XX & 44XX series, so I can't compare, but these ARE the best speakers I've ever heard. Closest to LIVE as I've experienced without "being there"
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
heres the real answer , from eBay guides ...So, what you see is the back side of a seriously deep, down-firing 12" driver cone?
And that's all there is to it?
A short course on these amazing loudspeakers. I will try to limit my comments and just hit the highlights since there is so much depth in the subject of speakers in general.
Theory: The Walsh speaker, actually introduced in 1973 / 74 (I sold the first pair to be sold locally to an architect in SF back then) is based on transmission line theory. Briefly the concept is that the acoustic wave generated by the driver, travels down the tapered cone and terminates in the resonant cavity (bottom enclosure) with no reflections running back up the cone [and therefore not out into the room either], i.e standard transmission line theory. Note that the speaker is faced down toward the floor, with the driver sitting on top at the narrowest part of the cone and the wide end of the cone is at the bottom coupled to the sealed enclosure. The radiating surface is then the backside of the cone when compared to a 'standard' speaker and thus radiates an omnidirectional wavefront [i.e. 360 deg] out into the room. That was a unique design concept and was patented by Lincoln Walsh and is major factor in the incredible aural imaging qualities these speakers have. It is a real shame he did not live to see it become reality. Further unique characterisitics are, these were the first and only speaker of the day to be (a) phase coherent and (b) without passive or active crossovers, the crossover was in the construction of the cone itself. Later KEF and other manufacturers, like those utilizing air-motion-transformers and flat panel electostatic technology, imitated "time alignment" by staggering the conventional outward facing speakers in an attempt to achieve the same effect. [Note: electrostatics actually do achieve good time alignment but suffer from narrow spacial imaging] The Walsh was the one true phase coherent speaker and was achieved by a simple and ingenious technique: The slope angle, or taper, of the cone was calculated such that the wave traveling down the cone face was in phase with the acoustic wave emminating out into the room, thus achieving phase coherence. In other words the resulting wavefront [radiating into the room] was in coincidence across the spectrum. That brings us to the crossovers, or actually, lack thereof. There are 3 sections in the long vertical cone, arrived at after long and laborious testing. The high frquency material is a titanium alloy (which contributed to their high cost, and ultimately their being pulled off the market as being too costly and labor intensive to produce), the second is stainless steel for the midrange and the 3rd is heavy paper cone material for low end. The high frequencies radiate outward at the top, titanium (smaller diameter) end, the midrange from the stainless section, and the bass at the lower paper part of the cone. This speaker was hailed as having the smoothest frequency response of any speaker (+/- 4dB down to 20Hz) in that era. By the way, prior to Ohm Acoustic launching the Model F, they launched the humongous Model A, which I have never seen or heard [but would love to] other than in print. The responder who mentioned the point about how power hungry the F's are is correct. It should also be pointed out that an amp with very high damping factor is also a big plus, in that the speaker mass on loud low end passages needs heavy dampening to keep it from "ringing" and will result in making that beautiful musical bottom end really come alive, not just a whump, so common in today's systems.
Cautions: One important point, be very careful in chosing an amp for these speakers - they hate DC (e.g. driving the amp into flatline distortion or DC generated during power on/off). Any direct coupled output amp can easily destroy these drivers, they seem to be hyper-sensitive to DC. I have been driving mine since 1977 with 2 MC 275's tube amps, each strapped for mono. With the transformer coupling on the outputs of the MC's, I have never blown a driver, even though I have driven them into distortion many times. Other people I know with Direct Coupled amps have blown the drivers and I believe you cannot get replacements anymore. [I wonder how many F's are still out there making music?]
Repair: I did replace the surrounds a few years ago. I bought a set from a vendor in Audio Mag for $20 and they worked just fine. It's a job that requires a day and a no-hurry mindset but is not technically hard to do. The most important part is the positioning of the new surround on the cone before it's glued AND the positioning lower surround to the speaker frame before it's glued to make sure the alignment of the cone inside the voicecoil is perfect. If it is not done right, piston coil will rub inside the driver and then you'll have real problems. I used masking tape, after applying it to my jeans to take some of the stickiness out, for temporary attachment until the correct position was found. I tested postion by gently pushing the cone up into the voice-coil several times to ensure free, easy movement. I rechecked this as I progressed. Once postioned correctly I used contact cement for an adhesive. Let the cement cure overnight and you are done. Take your time in removing all the old glue and gunk too. Doing good prep is essential and it is the most time consumming part of the job. Feel free to contact me if have further questions/comments. Btw, surrounds are easily found on the web these days.
Placement: Back in the 'good old days' when I had the perfect listening room for these, the ideal set up I found was the following. An ideal room will be about 12 - 15' across the front wall. Place each speaker in the left & right corners but pull them out about 1 foot from each wall diagonally [1 foot to the back and 1 foot to the side] making sure they equidistant from each surface, play with this distance until you find a sweet spot, which will be dependant on the acoustics of the room they are in. At some point, the imaging will come alive and you'll see what all the hooorah is about. Oh yea, one other thing I did but you probably won't want to do, I drilled two 1/2" holes cattycorner in the bottoms of the enclosures and ran a two 1/2" x 6" lag bolts in each speaker down into the hardwood floor - really improved the bass, didn't help the home value so much tho'.... [but they never got stolen either!]
[CV: I have been in the pro audio/video industry for over 35 years, designed/built and maintained many recording facilites and custom consoles and equipment for some the best known performers.]
The Ohm Walsh is a unique speaker that uses the infamous Walsh driver. Unlike a typical dynamic speaker, which uses a cone firing directly into the room, the Walsh driver works by exciting (or energizing) the surface of the driver itself. Lincoln Walsh theorized that a dynamic speaker could never behave like a true "piston", so instead designed his driver to radiate sound by exciting the driver's suface. The lower the frequency, the more of the driver's surface is utilized to radiate the sound into the room. The Walsh driver, most visible in the Model "F", appears similar to a cone driver firing directly into the cabinet, though on the "F" it is considerably larger than most drivers and manufactured using varying materials along the drivers length.
The Walsh driver results in an omnidirectional soundstage, particularly at lower frequencies, that is unique relative to more conventional speakers. Later Walsh speakers used a conventional tweeter, typically a cone, with a crossover to supplement the high frequencies; this radiates into the center of the room when facing the speaker (nominally 45 degrees off center when facing the speaker). Walsh switched from a trapezoidal wood cabinet using real wood veneers to what are referred to as "sound cylinders" to reduce manufacturing and selling costs.
Why such a loyal following on E-bay for the Ohm Walsh? Several. First, these speakers are very unique, both in terms of appearance and sound, relative to "conventional" dynamic speakers. While Ohm is no longer the only manufacturer to make speakers using the Walsh driver, the others doing so now are esoteric, small volume (read: expensive) producers.
Second, Ohm is rather unique in that they still support their entire product line, including crediting the full retail price of the original model towards purchase of a new one. Replacement parts and upgrades are available for their entire product line through their website. How many speaker manufacturers today provide that level of service and support?!
Third, the soundstage provides what Ohm refers to as "full stage stereo"; unlike conventional speakers, the soundstage is very wide and largely independent of the user's position relative to the location of the speakers (in large part because of the omnidirectional driver coupled with the controlled directivity of the tweeter on later models). Personally, I find the effect very appealing. They even work well in a home theater set-up without a center channel, operating with a "phantom" center channel...try that with conventional speakers (the soundstage will often collapse to the speaker you are sitting closest to)!
Issues to look for include the speaker cabinet (the wood veneers used on these models is prone to chipping, as they have sharp, exposed edges, particularly on the lower edge of the cabinet), "foam rot" of the surround (buzzing present, particularly at low frequencies), dented "cans", and improperly repaired or inoperable drivers. Ohm claims that the original Model "F" driver, rather complex in terms of materials and construction, cannot be properly repaired (Ohm does offer other, more modern Walsh drivers that can be utilized in the original cabinets). The grills are often damaged and discolored, though Ohm does offer replacements. Finally, the speakers are rather large and heavy, requiring careful handling and packaging to avoid damage in shipment (Ohm recommends removing the drivers, packing and shipping them separately from the cabinets to reduce risk of damage).
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Dear Storm:
will you be my humor consultant ?
can I PM you every time I'm in doubt ?
Is your talent a sideline or your full time occupation ?
How did you get so smart in just 22 years ?
(that was humor , in case you didn't know)
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Wow, seawolf - you are clever.
No, I just have a strange way of looking at things. Glad we can all voice our opinions without worrying about consequences.
Are you keeping those OHMS or are you going to sell them?
-Storm.
After your concern about Portland's GW president, I thought you might want to take some of your mad money and throw the needy a bone.does one have to do with the other ?
a private transaction between 2 consenting adults.
Just for your gratification, I will tell you that I donate at least 10X more than any normal person. In addition to my donations, being the only person in the family with a truck, I also donate my brothers items and the in-laws items too. Now you know.
when you have wanted a certain pair of speakers for 30 years and finally obtain them and they operate and look great ,,,,,,,,,,,,,you keep them
(even if they were unfinished Birch, instead of beautiful walnut veneer)
dont worry, I still have 4412's, 4410's, L36's , L26's ,L100's , P10's and prolly more that I can't remember.
I'd most likely sell the Altec's, if I had some.
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
would like to throw him a rock . When I donate, I hope my goods are being used to help the needy, not to inflate some executive pay.
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Seawolf -
Why do you need all those speakers? Do you have one pair in each room of your house?
Why would you sell Altecs?
I was only asking a simple question, no need to get hostile.
BTW: In my opnion, the unfinished birch is WAY more attractive than any Walnut veneer. Just because it sold for cheaper, does not mean it is cheaper. I would easily say it is worth 10% more than regular 846B walnut.
-Storm.
Our old guitar player had a pair of these. I was very impressed with their overall sound and imaging. Sort of like what a 901 should have been like
Two things though - they take a lot of power (200 watts is the lower-end of what you want), and they are fragile. One moment you're listening to beautiful music thinking "I'll just crank it up a bit more" and the next, pop...silence. I think he replaced the drivers in each one at least one before he realized they weren't for him.
Like other esoteric designs (planars come to mind), they're great for recreating the sound of live music at moderate levels. If you want the true concert experience though (with volume to match), blowing them up will get old fast.
jblnut
thanx for nfo. I am trying to be carefull. They do have fuses on each speaker.
The 4412's are still hooked up, guess I'll switch to them when in "wild mode"
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Maybe you would but no one else
I would of done the same thingFunny thing is that the prior owner was trying to run them with an Aiwa boombox. he wired L and R speaker wires togeather to 1 speaker. (but did use Monster cable)
Didn't sound too good
FWIW: I actually turned down a discount. He offered to give me $10 off for gas due to the 20 mile drive. I figured $135 was good enough already.
A good deal is a good deal,end of story
Two things though - they take a lot of power (200 watts is the lower-end of what you want), and they are fragile. One moment you're listening to beautiful music thinking "I'll just crank it up a bit more" and the next, pop...silence. I think he replaced the drivers in each one at least one before he realized they weren't for him.
Like other esoteric designs (planars come to mind), they're great for recreating the sound of live music at moderate levels. If you want the true concert experience though (with volume to match), blowing them up will get old fast.
jblnut
This is why I love my Altecs. I can crank them up and rock the house without worrying at all.
I think later down the road, the birch will be desirable. It does not matter that it was the cheaper, it will be supply and demand. Not alot out there to choose from, mostly walnut versions.
-Storm.
birch reminds me of kitchen(ette) cabinets in a cheap motel or trailer park. One grade above raw plywood.
And your reasoning that later down the road, the birch will be desirable ??? Because Not alot out there to choose from ????
Not a lot of Chevy Vegas out there to chose from either. They worth zilch. (Sorry Mr. Zilch)
maybe read up on jackgiff 's beautiful rosewood 4412's , maybe those Altecs can be rescued.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...light=rosewood
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
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