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Thread: ALtec Model 19-XO upgrade discussion

  1. #61
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Would a tube or duct help with LF in these according to the data?
    It would lower the tuning frequency... this would lessen the bass bump and extend the bottom a bit. Personally, I'd look into it, however, if you like the 19's bottom end this will lessen the impact and boom.


    Widget

  2. #62
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    BB6P suggests an improved high fidelity alignment in 7 cuft (orchid,) 0.5 cuft larger than the stock bottom box alone.

    That's like incorporating the spacer volume into the bottom by making the bottom box a couple of inches taller and closed at the top, moving the woofer up the same amount. Put the ports near the bottom.

    Another option if you want to retain the stock cabinet proportions would be to close the spacer at the top and put in the new ducted ports instead of the existing rectangular one.

    Tuning is two 4" diameter ports, 5" long for 32.15 Hz. Three 3" ports @ 4.25" long will work, too, it says.

    Cone excursion limit is lower, and bass more extended. Useable bass drops to 28.48 Hz.

    That's what I'd build for the "X" experimental version. Just looking at the plots, I'm almost certain it would sound better to me:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #63
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    FWIW, there's been some speculation that the reduced area of the cabs' "connector sleeve" with a larger area above may cause cavity resonance. I have no idea how to determine if a signifigant effect is produced other than to build an equivalent volume single compartment cab and measure and compare.

  4. #64
    Gary L
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    It sounds just like these which are the first 19 clones I built.
    Two 4" ports 5" deep with woofer raised 2" higher and no seperation.





    Gary

  5. #65
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    And how do THOSE sound, Gary?

    What's the internal volume?

    [Looks like you're done already.... ]

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    It sounds just like these which are the first 19 clones I built.
    Two 4" ports 5" deep with woofer raised 2" higher and no seperation. Gary
    Problem with that layout is mounting both units to a common baffle messes up the vertical alignment, so unless biamped with appropriate phase delay will be a real mess.

    Whatever you end up with will need to;

    1. Mount components so voice coils are vertically aligned, or
    2. Select crossover point and slope to best match phase at XO for the chosen alignment (method used on 19s), or
    3. Use active XO with variable delay to correct phase alignment.

    Just my 2 cents, but given the 416/802/811 component set, I believe Altec intended to, and successfully achieved, utilizing the components full potential with the Model 19. I just can't picture them saying "let's intentionally make this model fall short of its' potential so users can improve it themselves". Therefore, with the exception of biamping, which I highly recommend, I think you're chasing your tail trying to make a similar, yet superior system with the same components.

    That said, I'd suggest either 19 clones and sell a pair if you don't need them, or a totally different type of system, like the 820 corner horn for instance (a much older design that doesn't need to be re-engineered either).

  7. #67
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Gary's using the M19 crossover with those, I believe, Moldy.

    There's little doubt that M19 can be successfully "augmented" with UHF.

    Widget has suggested adding a midbass driver and lowering the LF frequency.

    [Plenty of stuff to explore with the M19 driver set.... ]

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    Gary's using the M19 crossover with those, I believe, Moldy.
    That's my point. 19s have offset component mounting, so if using a 19 XO, but altering the vertical position by mounting both without the offset, you've got problems.

  9. #69
    Gary L
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    Very interesting here. I had no idea verticle allignment even played a roll.

    My current clones come in a 7.4944 CU. FT. total interior Volume and have 2- 4" ports with tubes that extend 5" into the cabs.

    I think they sound great but this is where I get lost in the soup. I am perfectly satisfied with them but fully understand I am attempting to duplicate a sound from memory.
    They do not sound like my old 19s and I can't discern where the difference is with these old & imperfect ears. I just know they are not 19s and can't say why or where from.

    My current bass is sharper and punchier yet not as smooth as the old real 19s. Horns don't seem to sound any different at all. I also think my clones would not handle as much power as the old 19s when cranked past where I ever do. Actually they don't need to because they seem to sound better with less. It is deffinately a different kind of bass comming from my clones then what came from my real 19s. Wish I had the test equipment to tell me where the difference truely is but it is not in any way offensive or muddy or a problem, just different. This might have everything to do with cabinet materials, stiffness, insullation and the fact that my memmory is based on what my old music sounded like to much younger ears.
    Pretty much nothing has remained the same so I might be dead in the water before I start.

    Now for a question to those of you who have the equipment and programs to make solid assessments of your own speakers.
    Do you search for what the programs and test devices say is right or what your ears say sounds best to you?

    I can build my set in any one of many configurations. I can use the exact components I have and seperate both boxes or leave them in one box. I can add tweeters or additional horns, increase or decrease overall size and just like the rest of us, I could be totally happy with the results of totally disappointed. I have said this a hundred times on the forums and think it still holds true today. The very most expensive and highly rated speaker in this world might not impress these ears.

    For anyone here who is more of a novice at this then I am, I don't think there is any one set of rules to follow or for that matter any one particular sound you might achieve. As Zilch pretty much eluded to above and many others have added to, there has to be some testing with the ears you are attempting to please because there is no way of making the exact right speaker.

    Gary

  10. #70
    Senior Member Dylanl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moldyoldy View Post
    Problem with that layout is mounting both units to a common baffle messes up the vertical alignment, so unless biamped with appropriate phase delay will be a real mess.

    Whatever you end up with will need to;

    1. Mount components so voice coils are vertically aligned, or
    2. Select crossover point and slope to best match phase at XO for the chosen alignment (method used on 19s), or
    3. Use active XO with variable delay to correct phase alignment.

    Just my 2 cents, but given the 416/802/811 component set, I believe Altec intended to, and successfully achieved, utilizing the components full potential with the Model 19. I just can't picture them saying "let's intentionally make this model fall short of its' potential so users can improve it themselves". Therefore, with the exception of biamping, which I highly recommend, I think you're chasing your tail trying to make a similar, yet superior system with the same components.

    That said, I'd suggest either 19 clones and sell a pair if you don't need them, or a totally different type of system, like the 820 corner horn for instance (a much older design that doesn't need to be re-engineered either).

    I posted another thread looking for plans for the 820A I would love to build it. Do you know where I can find wokable plans?

  11. #71
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Now for a question to those of you who have the equipment and programs to make solid assessments of your own speakers.
    Do you search for what the programs and test devices say is right or what your ears say sounds best to you?
    Once you get set up to measure, you will quickly appreciate the correlation between how stuff measures and how it sounds. You'll be able to recognize why it sounds the way it does, and alter that, as desired. You acquire control.

    It goes to the fundamentals: getting the desired balance between drivers, then the desired frequency response from each of them, and the blend. Even a simple RTA can take you well beyond these basics and into more sophisticated design disciplines.

    Does that tell you how it's going to sound? Yes, in general terms, perhaps 60 or 70% of the total result. Different drivers sound different. Different horns sound different. Different cabinets sound different. Different layouts sound different. Different rooms sound different. Read Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook." He explores how to measure all of that stuff.

    In the end, the choices become subjective, but measurement carries you most of the way efficiently and, most importantly, objectifies the choices. Contrary to some opinions here, the ear may be the ultimate arbiter, but it is also a notoriously unreliable instrument - what sounds good, even to yourself, is not absolute. You have to rely on the measurements.

    Watching the RTA, it took more time for me to get the dime out of my pocket to do it than to balance Oznob's L110s here.

    "Holy CRAP," he said. "I never thought they could sound like THAT!"

    [Or words to the effect.... ]

  12. #72
    Gary L
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    Thanks Zilch, great explaination and I can respect the measurements a bit more now.
    I have heard speakers that were highly tuned to various test equipment and sound anylizing meters. Frankly, I found them rather boreing.
    Thats not to say they did not sound good but they did not sound like what I think is good.
    There is allot more to this then simply my ears and I notice very often what sounds good to me does not sound good to most others which is exactly why I asked.

    Gary

  13. #73
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    I have heard speakers that were highly tuned to various test equipment and sound anylizing meters. Frankly, I found them rather boreing.
    The key to this is doing it yourself. YOU control the outcome. Measurements merely facilitate the process of ascertaining what sounds good to you, and how to achieve it....

  14. #74
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    Once you get set up to measure, you will quickly appreciate the correlation between how stuff measures and how it sounds. You'll be able to recognize why it sounds the way it does, and alter that, as desired.
    Yes and no in my opinion...

    I certainly believe in taking measurements... I take lots of them while looking for specific things that I heard subjectively. However taking a look at a FR plot for the most part has very little info as far as whether or not a speaker will sound good. There can be a massive in-room bass hump and yet the speaker still sounds dry and tight... the bass may look relatively flat and yet it sounds bloated and boomy. The plot may show a response out to 20KHz yet it sounds hard and bright with no air, or conversely it may look soft on top yet sound really good.

    Personal preference is another can of worms entirely... however since acquiring CLIO and a calibrated mic and being able to take really accurate measurements I have learned how important really listening actually is... I believe if you talked with Greg Timbers or any of the successful loudspeaker designers they would agree just how important careful listening is in the design and evaluation process. No one will put away their mics, but the mic and graph is still only a hint of what we hear. Ultimately every customer has a stereo pair of highly resolving audio test devices.


    Widget

  15. #75
    Gary L
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    I am very fortunate that I can get some help and direction from knowledgable individuals here at LH.
    Basically you guys can wind me up and point me in a direction where good sound might be found. I don't ever plan to get much more involved in building speakers then to do it as a winter hobby and I do not have the technical or computer skills to set out on yet another adventure buying and learning how to use the testing equipment you speak of.
    I can certainly appreciate the value of such equipment and programs but there is a point where many of use have to make choices with our time and how best to spend what extra cash we have. My choice is to just play around and build a few sets of speakers that I have absolutely no need for but I do want to get them as close to right as I can.

    I hope that does not change the will to assist me and I do wish I was closer to those of you who have the equipment and have spent the time learning how to translate the results.
    One of the worst or best parts of the forum is that I have made a number of good friends from being here yet I have never actually met one of them in person. Here where I am there just is not many Vintage collectors who share my love of good music and sound and I would venture a guess that this is the case for many of us. It would be a pretty lonely sport without the forums.

    Gary

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