ALtec Model 19-XO upgrade discussion

[Gary L]

I kind of feel like there is a leak in the boat that has floated this thread and particularly the "Look at my new babies" thread for well over 600 posts! Hope my sharp pen didn't cause it but I do understand the desire to move on.

Where else in this world can we find the technical expertise involved here to acheive the results nestled within these threads?

I had very high hopes that Zilch would fall deeply in love with some of the Altec offerings and go about his usual plan of attack and rework the heart and soul of them for the optimum listening pleasure. I really think he has provided invaluable info and insight and might not be as impressed as many Altec lovers with the basic beginnings or end results.
I applaude his outstanding efforts and those of the many here who have made contributions to the cause.

I am pretty sure there are many Valencias that will sound a great deal better now and some other Altec speakers that will benefit from this effort.

Here is what I have learned.

Every speaker can be worked and re worked to sound a bit better then first designs.

No company has a lock on what sounds best.

Great sound can be found in drivers that cost considerably less then the ones we search for day and night.

Test equipment can tell the real story in terms of Black and White but may leave some of the grey areas out.

Weather you like Tubes, SS, JBL, Altec or any of the other sizes and/or styles is not at all an exact science to your ears.

I still can't hear my wires! I still like my Altecs! I still enjoy comming to forums that delve deep into this passion we all have and we will probably still argue over what is the best.

I propose a to the efforts put forth here by Zilch and the many who have contributed to this awesome thread.

I hope to hear some results from the shootout when Storm gets done with his previous engagements and can make this happen. I am now certain that his idea of what sounds best is very different from mine.

Thank you Zilch!

Gary

[JBLTEC]

[quote=Zilch;162022] snip......................One or another of you AK Altec guys is gonna have to invest in some measurement equipment. I've made some recommendations to Macaltec. quote]

Thanks for that Zilch. It may be a while but I'll get around to it. It'll be fun to see what is happening and how changes take effect. I have gleened much from our discussions and am now just letting it soak in and awaiting the day to make my own discoveries and attempts at improvement.

[spwal]

This is a great thread. I am infinitely grateful to Paul C whose outstanding work and congeniality got my Altec 19s singing like a bird.

best,

spwal

[analog addict]

"STOCK", Yours are certainly not!
I would loose the training wheels, drop the base down to where it is supposed to be...

Thanks, for all the advice Gentlemen. As far as losing the wheels, since they are in the middle of the living room, and don't have a permanent home yet, I am loathe to lose the mobility that the casters provide. Besides, it hopefully motivates my wife to make a decision on a new home. My only stipulations - 3 car garage and a mancav..I mean basement. My current favorite and one of two in the running is illustrated in the included pix/links. 16' to 20' ceilings, and in the first picture 50' long, and in the second, about 67' long. I can only imagine what the M19's would sound like.

I am hoping that JBLtec/Macaltec/Jason will get a set of the BMS 4550 drivers, because I think that would be the easiest way to accomplish my goals, along with a X-over upgrade. Do most people advocate also changing/upgrading the inductors, or just leave them alone?

By the way, both 802-8G drivers are untouched, and have the stamp across the back end intact as in the 3rd picture. Currently I'm not going to mess with them, unless I have a chance to try Jason's new acquisition(s)...First things first, recap the X-overs and change out the 416-8A for an 8B.... Also, after having hooked up a SONY STR 7800 SD last night, it's amazing what a few extra quality watts can do to bring out the bass in these beasts...Thanks again...


PS. DOn't get me wrong, I have nothing against JBL products. I have a pair of 4301b's and am considering a pair of 4430's I know can be had sometime in the future...I need to recover from this purchase first....

[Gary L]

Thats a date code showing they were made in the 48th week of 1977. You will probably find 033952 stenciled on the rear cover but when you remove the diaphragm to check the tangerines you should find 23744 stamped on the underside of the coil. Some could also have 34647s in them but many here claim the 23744s are the best, I can't hear any difference.

I do have to wonder what was the purpose of raising the base height that much. Kind of makes the speakers look awkward. I would think you could leave the casters while your in transition but the base should be shortened so the speakers are about 3" off the floor. The idea is to have the horn at ear level when you are sitting in front of them on a standard couch or easy chair and to allow the bass to interact with the floor.

House looks monsterous so you might need all they can give.

Gary

[Zilch]

The reference link to the 1978 CBS Labs review of the Model 19 (post #9) is now dead.

Did anyone save the .pdf, and would you upload it as an attachment here, please?

Zilch STOOPID!

[TnTn]

I didn't look at the link, but here's the pdf.

[garyl]

I think I have it printed out Zilch!

It says "A consumers Guide, New equipment reports" and Model 19, A Standout performer from Altec, from February 1978.

I tried to scan it so I could add it here but my scanner is not doing a very good job.

PM your Address if you would like me to send you a copy of the article.

Gary

TN beat me to it while typing but thats the one I have.

[Zilch]

Thanks, gang.

That's REALLY fast!!

[DaveV]

The inductors in my Model 19 xovers that according to the schematic should be 2.7mh actually measure 2.36 and 2.40 mh.
I switched in low resistance 2.80 inductors and I'm not sure if I like the results more than having the originals in.
Now I'm wondering if the lower value was intentional or if maybe there was a slight change in the later 19's that used the 416C woofer and that's where the 2.7 value was used.
Thought I'd check to see if anyone else has measured the inductors in their 19 xovers or if they might have a spare xover they could do that on.

[Gary L]

Hi Dave. I have plenty of spare 19 XOs but not a clue how to measure any of the values you seek.

I've seen in many threads where guys have recapped with various types and values and most of what I have gathered from discussions is that the so called designer caps that get quite costly don't necessarily add to the sonic value of the sound.

My knowledge is of little value in these discussions but if my DMM is able and you can direct I will certainly give some assistance.

Gary

[Zilch]

I'll be doing some measurements with them this week, and will get the inductors for you....

[DaveV]

Gary,

I am aware of the "voicing" that can be done with different brands and type of caps so I use the ones that sound the best to me and they aren't the expensive ones for sure.

I have added tweeters on the 19's and a cap change there is much more obvious than elsewhere.

I was tinkering with trying to get more woofer control/speed and more clarity between the woofer and mids so I switched out the so called 2.7mh original inductors with new 2.80's that should be close enough and I wasn't entirely happy with the results. The bass seemed tighter but vocals and other lower midrange body seemed to suffer some and that's when I meausred the original inductors and found they both weren't 2.7mh.
So that made me wonder if they were all more like 2.40 than 2.7.

This might be a case of voicing the speakers to my equipment and/or room but I would like to know what more of those so called 2.7's really measure out as.

Zilch,
If you can measure one or two that would be a help to me.

Thanks
Dave

[Gary L]

Gary,

I am aware of the "voicing" that can be done with different brands and type of caps so I use the ones that sound the best to me and they aren't the expensive ones for sure.

I have added tweeters on the 19's and a cap change there is much more obvious than elsewhere.

I was tinkering with trying to get more woofer control/speed and more clarity between the woofer and mids so I switched out the so called 2.7mh original inductors with new 2.80's that should be close enough and I wasn't entirely happy with the results. The bass seemed tighter but vocals and other lower midrange body seemed to suffer some and that's when I meausred the original inductors and found they both weren't 2.7mh.
So that made me wonder if they were all more like 2.40 than 2.7.

This might be a case of voicing the speakers to my equipment and/or room but I would like to know what more of those so called 2.7's really measure out as.

Zilch,
If you can measure one or two that would be a help to me.

Thanks
Dave

You need to search the "look at my new babies thread" and listen to alot of the info we learned from all the testing we all chipped in on.
Only a couple ever came up with adding a tweeter that made a positive difference in their own ears. Most tended to think just adding the BMS 4550 or 4552ND was the best of all worlds with the 19s and Valencias and it was as simple as swapping drivers.

I don't think audio Nirvana was acchieved but it did get pretty close the what the masses seemed to want. I also think both Zilch and Mrwidget can produce some mighty fine charts and graphs with their own experimentations but again they won't come cheap nor will they be music to the ears of us all.

I hope that just once in my life I can have an opportunity to listen to the holy grail of sonic purity in a loud speaker while played through the holy grails of electronics and from the best of the best source material.

I'm not at all disapointed in my current system and in the grand scheme of things I am running just some mediocre stuff and doing fine with the music I enjoy. We all have many pre conceived notions but by virtue of the lack of funds and lack of knowledge I will stick to what I have and enjoy.

Gary

[DaveV]

Gary,

I followed that "New Baby" thread all the way from start to finish and I have played with my tweeter addition since.

I have absolutely no problem with the added tweeters. They are sitting at the back edge of the cabinets and sound like they are part of the Model 19's because to my ears they blend very well and it sounds like their output is coming from the center of the 811's.

I was tempted to get the BMS drivers but I've never liked any 2 way sysyem I've ever heard because something was always lacking so I figured that would be the case here too.
Plus I did buy the 19's being 90% sure I wouldn't like them without tweeters so it's no big surprise.

Without them the 19's are not listenable/enjoyable to me so they made a huge difference and now with better bass and smoother mids than my Flamencos had, the 19's sound like a reasonably flat full range speaker in my room with my equipment.

I had the same tweeters (EV T-350s) on the Flamencos too but with a larger cap and that makes sense to me because the 806's weren't quite as extended as the 802G's with the comp network in the xover.

The T-350's don't go out beyond 14KHZ but they sure open everything up
because the lower range (6db/octave xover) reinforces the dwindling 802G response I guess. HUGE DIFFERENCE!
And yes, Bill at GPA remagged and put new diaprams in the 802's.

I just can't listen to program material that I know contains brushes on cymbals or bells, etc yet you can't hear or bearly hear them not to mention the improved clarity of instruments and voice.

I've concluded that a lot of people like the rolled off Altec sound but I've also concluded that I'm not one of them yet I do like the Altec drivers with an added tweeter. Finding the right xover point and padding is the tricky part.

But now because the upper end is opened up and crystal clear I was trying to do the same toward the bottom frequency range but to a much lesser degree than was needed to please me on the top end.

In one of the Model 19 or Valencia threads someone mentioned a Sony recording studio in CA that added EV T-350's to Model 19's and I wish I could find out more about that. They must have heard what I'm hearing and liked it too.


Dave