I thought zilch once told me that i didnt need to augment the 19 with a tweeter...
i wish i still had them, i would totally play around with an external crossover if i had them. oh well, they have moved on and are missed. fantastic pair of speakers!
I thought zilch once told me that i didnt need to augment the 19 with a tweeter...
i wish i still had them, i would totally play around with an external crossover if i had them. oh well, they have moved on and are missed. fantastic pair of speakers!
Thanks Dave. I have no problem at all with what you are attempting to achieve. My attitude always fall to it is your ears so go for it.
I do kind of liken it to back when I was younger and everyone who had a VW wanted to put a Porsche engine in it.
I'll probably always wonder why folks who detest the sound of model 19s and consider them "unlistenable" would even bother owning a set.
I don't doubt for one second a great combination can be found to bring the 19s into your desired listenable state but it just seems to me you are running all the way around the block to get accross the street.
Are there no decent 3 way speakers in a similar price range that already have what it is you are seeking? I would think a nice pair of JBL L 300s would fit the bill here and be much cheaper in the long run.
There is also always the possibility we just like messing with our gear and trying to make what we have more then they are as I suspect is the case here.
Again, I have no problems with however you choose to get what it is you want but I also hapeen to feel the 19s when functioning properly have many great attributes but they are not the do all end all of speakers and likely never will be no matter what we do to them.
Gary
Don't believe everything you hear.Originally Posted by spwal
However do believe everything you do HEAR.
Widget
I'd suggest that if your T350s don't go out to beyond 18KHz there is something wrong with them.
Here is a plot of some T35s with their much smaller magnet than the T350s... the more powerful magnet raises the mass break point and therefore the high frequency extension. If you are curious to see the effect, look on that same thread a few posts later Zilch posts some plots of a T35B with an even smaller magnet than the T35... the highs are quite rolled off.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...1&postcount=34
Widget
Mr Widget,
I guess I should have been more specific.
I used 14KHZ as the what I'd call a solid usable frequency limit without EQ of some kind and these are the older T-350's from around 1965 or before.
They do go out to 20KHZ but they start dropping pretty quick at 14KHZ.
At the time I also had a pair of Altec 3000's and a pair of EV T-35's checked out and they were similar in the upper limit but the T-350 is more efficient.
It seems that I like the "character" of the sound produced by the T-350 more than the Altec 802G in the upper frequencies and obviously there's some HF extension now too so incorporating them is still a work in progress as to how far down to get them to work.
In the original system they came from they were crossed over at 3500 12db/octave to EV T-25A's with the original fiberglass 8HD horns and that was a nice smooth sound. Could be the pheonlic diaphrams in the T-25's?
I guess "my thing" is the character of the sound.
When I moved to a smaller house I couldn't take all of my big speakers so I ended up trashing the EV Regency cabinets so now I can't compare the Model 19's to them but I still have the drivers.
Who knows. Maybe I'll end up using with the EV's again now that I have a wall they can be mounted into with lots of space behind for the 15W woofers to work into.
The quest for the perfect transducer, that doesn't exist. LOL
Dave
They don't NEED tweeters if they're working up to original spec, and especially if you've upgraded the HF driver. That doesn't mean you can't add one if you want to spend the rest of your life diddlin', twiddlin', and 'sperimentin' with them.
All is not lost. Build a bass bin, stick a horn and driver on top, and tweak AWAY!
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=9901
Note: M19 box is too big for its driver....
Many people say, Altec Lansing model 19 is one of the best sounding models Altec ever made. I'm an Altec fan since 1969, and I listened a lot of different models. I think model 19 is the best model. But also may people say the 811 horn is the best horn for a 1" driver. So my last project (this winter) is to build the most optimal speaker with Altec components as 416-8B speaker, 811 horn (including some gypsum work), 808-8B driver and for some higher frequencies, and some more air in the sound a ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer on top. The sound is what you hear by your ears, and that is very depending on in what kind of room you are listening. I think the room can makes your sound fantastic or bad. I think Altec is a the ideal speaker to play with, I mean a normal Altec speaker enclosure with standard Altec crossover sound very forward. If you want a wide sound wall, like you hear a life band playing, that's what I prefer, you can change/upgrade the crossover and you can accomplish fantastic results.
I used the crossover schematics from Jeff Markwart's model 19, upgraded this crossover with North Creek 10 AWG Music Coils. These coils are really wonderful, and they sound much much better than the Mundorf coils.
Solen caps, witch I (later)upgraded with Hovland bypass caps. Later I want
to try (test) the Vishay o.o1uF bypass caps instead of the Hovland's. But now at this time I'm very happy with the results, the sound of this speakers is remarkable, exceptional detailed and very open. I created a perfect wide sound wall, it is like you hear life music. Now I must finish the enclosures and the job (I think my last speaker job) is finished.
FWIW: Years ago I had my T-35's re-'phragmed by the then, current EV owner, Mark IV. When I spoke to the tech who did the work, he told me the 35's and 350's used the identical diaphragms, i.e. phenolic. He also said the only technical difference was +3 db effeciency increase due to the larger magnet size of the T-350.
They don't NEED tweeters if they're working up to original spec, and especially if you've upgraded the HF driver. That doesn't mean you can't add one if you want to spend the rest of your life diddlin', twiddlin', and 'sperimentin' with them.
All is not lost. Build a bass bin, stick a horn and driver on top, and tweak AWAY!
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=9901
Note: M19 box is too big for its driver....
I tried many enclosures for the 416-8B the last 35 years, the only thing I can say is the 416-8B need a lot of space, you need at least a minimum enclosure of 235 liters. But that's is for my ears, and conform what my doctor told me: my ears are in very good shape. (as you can see on the picture)
Altec Lansing Fan,
Thanks for sharing your project. I have a few for you questions.
Did you duplicate the Model 19 xover as per the schematic and NOT change any values? You just used better parts correct?
Then that means you used 2.7mh inductors in series with the woofers correct?
What is the xover point (frequency) and attenuation rate (db/octave) for the Heil Tweeters?
I agree with the wall of sound
Thanks
Dave
Yes Dave, I only duplicate the schematic, and only used better parts.
I also used 2.7mh inductors, exactly like the schematics.
The crossover point for the Heil AMT Tweeters is 9000 Hz. (cap 4.7 uF) I use them just to support the typical horn sound. In the beginning I though, I need an Lpod to reduce the volume of the Heil AMT tweeters, but after testing the volume of the ESS Heil Airmotion Transformer was exactly the right volume. I don't like the Twigly-Digly-Ding-Ding sound, what you can get from a tweeter.
Very important: The other parts of the system.
I tried many different amplifiers and preamps, Quad, Sansui, McIntosh, Denon you can name it, till now the best system for me is what I have now.
My system is very very simple and not expansive:
Very important is the preamp; I used for many many years always McIntosch. But after I learned how things work between analog and digital
I combine analog (old) and digital (new) with enormously succes.
So first I bought a Densen D-200 preamplifier (www.Densen.dk) with lifetime warranty! And that's my preamp number 1 till now.
I can tell you, in combine with a push pull 300B Tube amplifier (with TL FullMusic Premium Mesh Plate Globe Shape tubes) that's a wonderful combination.
CD player:Quiet new on the market the chinees brand Jungson Magic Boat SACD tube cd player.
Cables/interlinks: preamp-->poweramp Monster Retro Gold
preamp-->CD player Monser M1000i
poweramp-->speakers Monster Studio Pro 1000
Just for the low frequencies (below 35 Hz) I use a Klipsch RW 12 subwoofer, only to support a little.
That's all, no preamp with dual chassis, no DAC, nothing.
My best friend (he is a friend for over 50 years now) he owns a very expensive audio set: McIntosh C100 preamp, 2xMcIntosh C1000, JBL K2 and 1x JBL Tik subwoofer, AudioNote DAC, Technics CD player, he comes oftentimes to me to listen to the music, and he is astonished how these old Altec boys sounds. It's a little amazing for him because years ago (in the seventies he also owns Altec speakers, but in that times the todays affordable upgrade parts were not there or the knowledge was not there.)
So try something, and you will get a super sound from your old Altecs.
The big difference between JBL and Altec is I think, the JBL is super in HIFI quality sound, Altec Lansing is super in producing a real LIFE sound.
Thanks
oh my man, you have made me a believer and you know it. all the secrets have been revealed to me...Don't believe everything you hear.
However do believe everything you do HEAR.
Widget
Altec Lansing Fan,
While building your xovers, did you try removing the first small inductor before the 2.7 and the HF pot then just run the HF line direct to the + input?
Or did you find that you needed to adjust that pot because of the added tweeters?
I never saw an answer from anyone as to exactly why that inductor and pot is even needed. It's not like there's a abundance of highs to be cut from the 802G/811 or some of us wouldn't be adding tweeters.
It's widely known that EV used the same diaphragm in both drivers. I doubt your tech was actually correct in his assessment however. I would be quite surprised if the T350 had the exact same FR curve as it's smaller brother(cousin?) I am speculating though as I never measured one and it is true at some point pouring on the magnetic flux will not extend the high end of the driver's range. However based on EV's original specs and knowing what we do about driver design, I am inclined to believe the T350 has a bit more extended top end in comparison with the T35.
Widget
Its function is described in the M19 crossover sims I posted. It establishes the attenuation at the very high end, i.e., the starting point for the contour rolloff of the mids. What I never found out is why it was derved from the LF path.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ary#post128826
Markwart simply eliminated it in his designs, which may be fine for 806A in Duplexes, since they can't play up there, practically, anyway. 802s and 902s CAN, so we have put it back in a different location in the current 9844 upgrade here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...971#post197971
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