ALtec Model 19-XO upgrade discussion

[Gary L]

Gary, That is an impressive looking bunch of hardware. Is there anything better than the 19? I'd just go for two sets.

Jason

Thanks Jason. To my ears the 19s sound fantastic and I too wonder.

The Z 19s Zilch eluded to certainly have my interests peaqued!

Bowtie427SS calls his idea the 19.5s but the Z 19 has a nice ring to it.

I am not adverse to trying new ideas and with all the talk here and in other threads I just decided why not just make a set to be what everyone thinks is the missing link in the sonic spectrum.
Sadly I am not the tech here and have to ask the experts.

My only ability in this project is building the cabinets and soon to have the time to do it. I need more speakers like I need a hole in my head!

With what I have invested so far a bit more won't break the bank but I sure would love to build a set that will truely blow original 19s out of the water.

What will it take, JBL slots, EV 350s, some other tweek to add what is missing when we all discuss these fine speakers?
When rolling your own cabinets you can do what ever you want because they won't be worth much more then the price of the parts when you are done---except to you.

I refuse to buy a real 19 and put it on the butchers block but it sure would have been cheaper in the long run.

Gary

[Mr. Widget]

To my ears the 19s sound fantastic and I too wonder.

As with many vintage designs any improvements may fall on deaf ears... I am not suggesting that you are deaf, but you may not want a truly accurate and revealing monitor and may actually prefer a performance to a recreation of a performance... it appears that many on this forum do.

I need more speakers like I need a hole in my head!

I surely understand that one!

I refuse to buy a real 19 and put it on the butchers block but it sure would have been cheaper in the long run.

I agree completely... I think cutting into any of these vintage pieces is just wrong... if you want to mess around with them, it is easy enough to build a box... if not, find someone to help you... it is fun.


Widget

[JBLTEC]

Agreed on the box chopping. I had plenty of people telling me how much better my Cornwalls would sound with an 811 mounted in place of the sqwuaker. I don't doubt it as nothing to date even compares to my 511's but I will not cut my cabs just to try it. Gary while you're at it make 3 sets of them 19's and I'll be up to get a pair when you get them done .

[Gary L]

Thanks Mr W and JBLtec.

I probably am deaf to some degree but the funny part is the 19s are the best speaker I have ever heard so it is very hard to hear whats missing if you have never heard it.
I read all these post and all the talk about roll off at 80 MPH or is it Kilos but I don't hear it.
I read all this talk about missing frequencies in the UHF or is it VHF but again, it is hard to understand what you have never heard.

I know most hear have a case of JBL on your brains and I don't fault anyone for their loves. I am a bit over the top with a case of Altecitus so if there is a way to make them better then I am in a position right now to JUST DO IT!

If you never drove a Rolls Royce I suppose a Lincoln town car is a pretty sweet ride.

What upgrades or additions do you guys think should be made to the 19 to make it the "Best that it can be"?
Thats what I am asking here.
I do have faith in Zilch's charts and graphs and I believe in the science to a degree. Can a speaker really be made that fills all the gaps?

I also understand I am working within some limitations given the components I want to use and already have. Surely, with some tech assistance, I should be able to produce a pretty fine speaker in the next month or two.

Weather I will be able to hear the difference is another discussion but it sure would be nice to have all the bases covered with this project.

Gary

[Mr. Widget]

What upgrades or additions do you guys think should be made to the 19 to make it the "Best that it can be"?

First I would seriously consider dropping the crossover point to 800Hz and use the 511 horn... possible even using a larger format Altec driver and the 1.5" entry 511 horn.

A tweeter would provide a real benefit... I would not use a 2402 or 2404... the 2405 is a possibility... the T350 or even one of the Fane or Fostex tweeters.

Depending on your taste in music, if you want to reproduce many CDs recorded after the mid '80s, I'd consider a sub too...


Widget

[Storm]

Gosh Widget - Are you never satisfied? I would hate to be your wife!



-Storm

[Zilch]

If you want to venture beyond merely replicating the existing design, let me advise, unequivocally, that you cannot do this successfully without measuring as you go.

Now, that doesn't mean a big investment in gear, if you can use your computer to do it. You'll need a software package like TrueRTA (1/6 octave version,) a mic preamp, the Behringer measurement microphone ($50) and a mini-boom stand for it, and an XLR mic cable. I haven't tried that package myself, but several others here are going (have gone) that route. Perhaps they or others will be able to advise further.

For starters, build yourself a LF box. I don't know if M19 is the optimum size and tuning for that woofer, but I'll plug it into BB6P for a preliminary look. As you know, I don't do Altec, typically. Perhaps others will have some suggestions on that part.

Once that is complete, the real fun begins. You'll be able to see how various driver/horn/network combinations work and sound in comparison to your M19s, and you'll be able to dial THOSE spot on to your listening space and frequency response preference.

O.K., what's the specific Altec woofer model number you want me to run in BB6P then?

[Mr. Widget]

Gosh Widget - Are you never satisfied? I would hate to be your wife!



-Storm

Nothing personal, but I would hate for you to be my wife too.


Actually after many years of messing around with a wide range of JBL and non JBL drivers and systems... yes Altec and even Klipsch included, I have found a system that I am quite pleased with. It does weigh hundreds of pounds and cost a king's ransom... but for me it works.


Widget

[Gary L]

If you want to venture beyond merely replicating the existing design, let me advise, unequivocally, that you cannot do this successfully without measuring as you go.

Now, that doesn't mean a big investment in gear, if you can use your computer to do it. You'll need a software package like TrueRTA (1/6 octave version,) a mic preamp, the Behringer measurement microphone ($50) and a mini-boom stand for it, and an XLR mic cable. I haven't tried that package myself, but several others here are going (have gone) that route. Perhaps they or others will be able to advise further.

For starters, build yourself a LF box. I don't know if M19 is the optimum size and tuning for that woofer, but I'll plug it into BB6P for a preliminary look. As you know, I don't do Altec, typically. Perhaps others will have some suggestions on that part.

Once that is complete, the real fun begins. You'll be able to see how various driver/horn/network combinations work and sound in comparison to your M19s, and you'll be able to dial THOSE spot on to your listening space and frequency response preference.

O.K., what's the specific Altec woofer model number you want me to run in BB6P then?

I was hoping you wouldn't send me in this direction! I would much rather disect a crossover, which I know nothing about, then to install yet another program or two into this dammed computer that causes nothing but STRESS.
Model 19s typically use the 416-8B woofer and I have a set of them and a set of 416-8As, both are the 16" wide framed models and as far as I can tell identicle.
HF drivers can be 802-8Gs with tangential phase plugs or 808-8A with standard metal phase plugs and all have new GPA 34647 8 ohm aluminum diaphragms and all are freshly remagged and or reconed. The horns are 811Bs, the black pair has dynamat dampening while the green pair are stock. I also have standard, stock 19 XOs for both sets or the new ones made by PaulC from the Jeff Markwalt schematic you posted above and pictured in post #1.

My hope is to add to what I have and end up with a very nice, mostly altec speaker for set number two. I am sure I could add a tweeter here and an additional horn there and come up with a four or five way KABUKI I could sell from a white van.

Thank you for your help

Gary

[grumpy]

...possible even using a larger format Altec driver and the 1.5" entry 511 horn.

Factory-damped 1.4" entry 511E ? ... Wouldn't mind a pair of those myself.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to pop up too often.

GaryL, do you already have the factory M19 plans that are available online?
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/

-grumpy

[Gary L]

Thank you Grumpy! I do have J Markwarts site but have to get to a friends computer with HS to do the download and printing. This click and wait crap with slow dial up is more frustrating then you might imagine.

I do have friends with 19s close by and can do allot of the measurements from the real cabinets as well. Mine will be sufficiently braced, unlike factory cabinets and this too might add some sonic differences.

Gary

[JBLRaiser]

Thank you Grumpy! I do have J Markwarts site but have to get to a friends computer with HS to do the download and printing. This click and wait crap with slow dial up is more frustrating then you might imagine.

I do have friends with 19s close by and can do allot of the measurements from the real cabinets as well. Mine will be sufficiently braced, unlike factory cabinets and this too might add some sonic differences.

Gary

I pulled this from a forum member.

[Zilch]

L220 as sub?

Ooops!

O.K., 416-8A isn't in the BB6P database, but 8B and 8C are.

For comparison, I need the M19 LF cabinet gross internal volume and port dimensions, please.

If somebody has or can link me to 416-8A T/S parameters, that'd help, too....

[Gary L]

Thanks Zilch. I am liable to get flamed for this but IMO the 416-8A and the B are one in the same as far as the T/S go. Both use the exact same coil and cone and I have never seen the T/S for the As.
The LF cabinet port is 11" by 2 1/2".
Some confusion exists with the internal volume because the lower box is open to the upper box which adds additional volume inside. I don't even have a clue how to measure exact interior volume. Here


Gary

[Dylanl]

Too bad you can't pour water in it.