The Perfect Room: Spaces

[Gary L]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. Why do we strive for the very best in speakers when we cram them into sardine can rooms?
As mentioned above, few homes have exceptional listening rooms.

I was in one home located in Tuxedo Park, Harriman, NY. This entire area is loaded with very large multi-million dollar old homes. The particular mansion had a listening room that was simply spectacular and opened up into a cathedral ceilinged center staircase where 5 people could stand side by side on any one step and the ceilings were 40 feet high.
The treatments in the room were also spectacular with large tapestries and persian rugs hanging from the walls and very plush furnishings throughout. Seating for 30 people easily.
Now please don't laugh because I found it criminal. The only stereo in this room was a Bose Wave radio/CDP. The owner was not at all into music except that he played the Violin quite well.
I wanted so badly to bring some gear down just to set it up and rock this room for a while. The owner could easily afford anything and everything in my stable and the stable itself but has no interest and truely feels his radio is more then ample for the room.

Gary

[coherent_guy]

I hear you Gary L., and I too have cringed when seeing what could be a listening room vs what passes as one. Of course, a dedicated listening room is quite rare and rather a luxury. I am referring more to ludicrous setups like say 4350's in a 10' by 12' room, or what you described. I recall a photograph accompanying a review in a major high-end audiophile magazine in the late 80's or early 90's. The reviewer was posed next to a pair of six foot plus tall tower speakers, and less than a foot from the top of the speakers was the ceiling, that could not have been more than seven feet from the floor. Clearly a basement room, complete with metal support posts. This, the environment for a multi-kilo-buck speaker review? At least it was a subjective review, no measurements were done. But that was the usual environment this reviewer used for equipment reviews? Unless the room was anechoically treated, or only near-field listening was done, it was ridiculous. So don't feel to bad about your rooms people, some of the "pro's" have it much worse.

[LowPhreak]

Welp, if I were to build the "perfect" room, I'd start with dimensions based on the Golden Ratio: 2.6 to 1.6 to 1.0, or say a room of 26'L x 16'W x 10'H; larger than that would probably be better to help develop the uber-lows. That would "theorectically" have the least standing wave/null, or would distribute them more evenly amongst the frequencies.

Then of course the walls would be of brick or cinder block, with appropriate absortive/reflective treatments all around.

That's my quick n' dirty version anyway.

[doyall]

While admittedly far from optimal, especially with respect to speaker placement (and particularly on the vintage stereo w/L250’s), my current listening environment has some attributes that are typically mentioned as being sonically positive: some (albeit small) non-parallel walls and a cathedral ceiling, 10’ in the center running the entire length of the room sloping to 8’ on the sides. Diagram is below. Without wholesale rearrangement, does anyone have any suggestions as to things that can be done to make the space more acoustically friendly or at least less objectionable? (For instance, would bass traps behind the L250’s in the vintage system do anything to compensate for their being placed so close to the wall?)

[LowPhreak]

Without wholesale rearrangement, does anyone have any suggestions as to things that can be done to make the space more acoustically friendly or at least less objectionable? (For instance, would bass traps behind the L250’s in the vintage system do anything to compensate for their being placed so close to the wall?)

Bass traps almost always help, but I'm not sure to what extent in those 45 deg. corners. You'd probably have to cut them in some way to fit the shape.

I'm no expert, but I don't know how you can get an accurate or consistent soundfield from speakers placed in that corner. Seems that the inner half of the soundstage (between the speakers) would be reflected in odd directions, in relation to the outside of the soundstage (the outer sides of the speakers), when the speakers are placed parallel to the main walls. If they're placed parallel to the 'flat' corner, then the opposite would seem to apply.

You may be able to tame much of that by covering the entire flat area of the corner with Auralex or Sonex sheets, and the wall behind the speakers out to a couple of feet past the sides and higher than the speaker tops. If you can afford it, use the 4" version since they will attentuate everything down to the upper bass range. If not, the 2" or 3" will do fine from the mids up.

I'll bet the soundstage and clarity would improve dramatically, and overall the sound would be much "quieter" and less irritating from being smeared with near-field noise.

[MJC]

Welp, if I were to build the "perfect" room, I'd start with dimensions based on the Golden Ratio: 2.6 to 1.6 to 1.0, or say a room of 26'L x 16'W x 10'H; larger than that would probably be better to help develop the uber-lows. That would "theorectically" have the least standing wave/null, or would distribute them more evenly amongst the frequencies.

My LR/HT is close to those dimensions. 20+'L x 17.5'W x 10'H. I made sure I didn't have any divisible dimensions. That 20' is when the insulated sliding pocket doors are closed in the 8'8" x 7' elipical archway. When open the room is 32'L. The ceiling is vaulted, so that eliminates one set of parallel boundries. And although the side walls are parallel the main speakers are far enough away(over 5') that I get very little, if any, early reflections.
Of coarse, listening outdoors is great. The Pine Knob amphitheater, in Michigan, comes to mind. Saw Blood, Sweat and Tears there in '75.

[B&KMan]

While admittedly far from optimal, especially with respect to speaker placement (and particularly on the vintage stereo w/L250’s), my current listening environment has some attributes that are typically mentioned as being sonically positive: some (albeit small) non-parallel walls and a cathedral ceiling, 10’ in the center running the entire length of the room sloping to 8’ on the sides. Diagram is below. Without wholesale rearrangement, does anyone have any suggestions as to things that can be done to make the space more acoustically friendly or at least less objectionable? (For instance, would bass traps behind the L250’s in the vintage system do anything to compensate for their being placed so close to the wall?)

Hello,

Well, well, well,

acoustic treatement is really complex

No exist ideal room size but exist less poor size room...


first , 2 separate problems in same expression.

-------
the resonnace of room is equal of modal dimension of room.
3 modes modal exist : Axial, Tangeancial and radial. It is the generator problem in bass and very low bass frequency.

this resonnace is linked by room dimension and not affected by position of speakers. move your speakers not affected the response else if you put your speaker in exact opposite phase of modal resonnace. this is one reason to speakers have a critical position (millimeter)

the treatment is diapram absorber or any same principe system.


for found the less poor position speaker without formula and any other complexe calculs just buy a excellent software CARA. (never regrets)


-------
the reflexion section is linked by the reverberation time. and surface reflexion...

the ratio volume of room VS the RT is important.
and the regularity of time to entire spectrum.

but professional, is more fine research reverberation and analyse the EDT, TR 20 , TR30... and the RASTI factor to determine the articulation response.

More than is make by the intensity probe who expose clearly the reaction of sound in situ and show where direction come... front or back.

The RPG site explain a many acoustical principe and good principe of correction treatement...

the room affect 50% of final result and convert the best speaker to drum garbage.

remember the real sound is not extraordinary!!! is just real. when you play instrument music, do you extasy by the real sound to come in your ear, same who peoples talk with you... Voilà..

my 2 cents.

:Cheers:

B&KMan.

[LowPhreak]

B&KMan -

All good info to be sure, but I think doyall might be wedded to the position he has his "vintage system" in right now. If that's the case, then the first best thing to do is to kill the near-field reflections as I outlined above. Controlling the lows with bass traps is the next thing I'd do.

If that were my room, I would have the speakers placed in different areas to begin with, but maybe doyall wants to keep them where they are. :dont-know

[doyall]

... but maybe doyall wants to keep them where they are. :dont-know

It's not that I want to keep them where they. It is my aesthetic concerns (can't blame it on a wife as I do no presently have one) along with the practicalities of relocating them (i.e., space limitations - it looks better on paper than it really is) that are the major impediments.

[Shane Shuster]

I always thought the "perfect" room thing was was a cop out like burn-in. Don't like your speakers, you need to change electronics. That didn't work? Your room is terrible you need sound treatment, or better yet build a custom house with a golden ratio room with floating floors.

How come the guy playing the sax at the tile filled airport tunnel doesn't sound terrible? When someone talks to you in a room do you notice the room or just the voice? (within reason, no indoor pools)

I've read a lot of the papers on the benefits of larger rooms. I've listened in larger rooms and like them less than medium to small rooms. Larger rooms have a set of problems. Small rooms have a different set of problems. I don't think one is scientifically better than the other, just trade offs.

My personal perfect room would be about 14ft wide 18deep and 9ft tall. Nearfield speaker placement with no bass traps or foam on the walls. Just regular furnishings.

[mikebake]

"I always thought the "perfect" room thing was was a cop out like burn-in."

It's not. It's real. i'm with you on the general idea, though; a lot of what you hear is crap/excuses. Rooms are not one of them.

" How come the guy playing the sax at the tile filled airport tunnel doesn't sound terrible?"

Believe me, sometimes he does. The answer to that question is a bit long-winded, but I will relate two things; a live sax has very strong acoustical output, and that output is also in a range that lives in the mid-band of human hearing, which helps. Secondly, I have had live bands with sax in environments where it sounded really crappy. It was the space. In this case, the lower floors of a parking garage, where we had to move the band due to a monsoonal rain storm. I had them on the top level initially, and the sound was glorious.

"Larger rooms have a set of problems."

What are they?

[Shane Shuster]

"Larger rooms have a set of problems."

What are they?

The sax was just an example. I think he was playing a guitar. My point was that he can sometimes sound good and he doesn't have a golden ratio environment or padded studio walls. What I was getting at is the one thing most of us can't change is the room. Its too easy for the mags/salesmen/audio companies to tell us to buy a new house because we aren't getting the "magic" out of what we bought. It gets people wishing for something that can't be changed. Its much easier than explaining what gear works better where.

This is just my opinion but smaller rooms have better dynamics. Lower power and less excursion to reach an spl. I would say they have better bass down really low. I can't put it into words very well but large rooms have large room imaging. Kind of too big of a soundstage and phasey/airy/ghosty. (these aren't very good words to describe it)

Reading about large rooms on the internet makes a person think they are great but for some reason when I listen in them I think they are just different and end up missing some of the things a small room does.
The major bad thing about small rooms is you have to pick your speakers much more carefully because not all designs will work in them.

Mike do you like headphones? It seems like some people really don't like them but I love mine. Maybe the perfect room thing is kind of like that.

[LowPhreak]

It's not crap Shane, or some naive belief in marketing spin. It's physics. Frequencies will be reinforced or nulled in ratios directly related to room dimensions. That fact is well-established.

It's also well-known that too much - or the wrong 'kind' or wrong frequencies of - reflected sound has a distorting effect on what's heard at the listening position.

It sounds to me like you've become so used to hearing music in a small room that anything playing in a larger room throws you into a bout of cognitive dissonance. I don't know about you, but I've seldom heard live bands or solo musicians playing in 14'x18' or smaller rooms unless they were crammed into a recording studio, or perhaps one guy in a corner of a small bar strumming an acoustic guitar.

But then recording rooms/booths are not generally designed to present the most pleasing sound to an audience; they're made for recording sound into a mic.

[Shane Shuster]

LowPhreak, you make some good points. Maybe I have become accustomed to a small room. But let me ask you this. Have you ever heard a large scale orchestra in a 26x16ft room?

A large room lessens the nulls and peaks but doesn't get rid of the problem entirely. I think bass and dynamics are harder for a speaker system to do correctly than frequency response. I understand the physics of wanting a bigger room but a bigger room cuts into other areas of physics.

I did not mean to imply anyone was naive, its just that the things I've read on the internet state large rooms are always better. I think its more like how some people sit in the front row at a movie theater. You can make arguments that the middle seats are better because of pixel blending or a million other things. The front row people won't care, the middle row picture isn't as big.

[Zilch]

Read Toole in the June '06 AES Journal.

He's the Harman VP of studying this stuff....