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Thread: The 2425Js Are SWEET!, but what Horn did I get?

  1. #1
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    The 2425Js Are SWEET!, but what Horn did I get?

    I picked up the 2425Js that are in excellent shape and not a bad price at $65 each.

    I also picked up a pair of horns to go with them. The gent I got them from was using one of teh drivers on his center channel on the BIG butt cheek horn (only had the one horn). But he also had a pair of smaller horns that appear as JBL..., but I'm not so sure. They appear as small butt cheeks and they are 8" x 8" x 6.5" deep. They have a cast in part# 42011056 and are made of a hard thick plastic. (I didn't see any of these dimensions on the vintage products page.) Nowhere do they say JBL. He said he paid $50/each and they are in brand new condition. I gave him $220 for the lot (horns and drivers).

    Can anyone tell me if these are even JBL?

    Anywho...,

    I first tried replacing the 075 in my 2235/LE175-HL-91/075 system crossed over at ~7,200Hz, and they certainly have plenty of highs up top, but not quite as much as the 075. They did sound very clean and natural up there... maybe more natural than the 075.

    I next reconnected the 075 and replaced the LE175-HL-91 crossed over at 800 Hz and ~7,200 Hz, and I really noticed the difference.

    First off, they are more efficient than the LE175/HLs, and to do an instaneous A/B comparison (without continually re-adjusting the crossover) I had to put an 8 ohm resistor in series with the 2425 to get the volumes close. (To my ear, with 8 ohms they were still a little hotter and using 16 ohms of resistance, they were a little quieter.)

    They are more articulate than the LE175s and the vocals are more pronounced. I don't mean louder, but more articulate and it was like lifting a veil off the male voice. Words became more intelligable. These would be GREAT for center channel dialog, especially on the BIG cheeks.

    What suprised me was than even though these "butt cheek"(?) horns are shorter than the HL-91, they had every bit as much low end extension and actually integrated into the system better.

    I'm thinking that these would be ideal to replace my Cerwin Vega surrounds and I could use them with a 12" woofer in a 2-way system without the need for a separate tweeter. If I had three, you can bet they would replace my LE175s/HLs.

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    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    2342 from L200t3, 4425, others, sounds like. Should be thread-on, not bolt mount.

    Use an L-Pad, not a resistor, to achieve balance.

    Maybe build the simple NL200t3-16 crossovers to drive them, if that's what they are.

    Put up a pic so we can be sure, please.

    Can I now say LE175s suck without offending you?

    [Not that they DO, of course.... ]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    2342 from L200t3, 4425, others, sounds like. Should be thread-on, not bolt mount.

    Use an L-Pad, not a resistor, to achieve balance.

    Maybe build the simple NL200t3 crossovers to drive them, if that's what they are.

    Put up a pic so we can be sure, please.

    Can I now say LE175s suck without offending you?

    [Not that they DO, of course.... ]
    If I were to replace the diaphrams on the 175s with those for a 2425, would I gain that articulation?

    These are definately a bolt on and have the three holes to mate with the 1" outlet drivers as well as two outter holes that allow them to be used with other models.

    I used the two outter holes to mate the two wide holes on the 2425. Will try to get some pics up later today.

    When these make their way into cabinets, I'll build 2-way versions of the "keepers" (and maybe include the high pass bypass) for best integration into the surround system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    2342 from L200t3, 4425, others, sounds like. Should be thread-on, not bolt mount.

    Put up a pic so we can be sure, please.

    As you wish.










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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    Can I now say LE175s suck without offending you?

    [Not that they DO, of course.... ]
    So how do I know it's the driver and not the HL-91? I'd have to take a cabinet apart and change out a set to find out. PITA.

    Some of us don't have multiple copies of these things just lying around.

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    P-Audio PH-230.

    I've only done rudimentary testing on them....

    [Over in Widget's horn/driver tests, I think.]

    *****

    I didn't think LE175 sounded all that bad on HL91; about the same as JBL's cheapest current driver, 2418H-1. It was the potato-masher horn I didn't like.

    Using a titanium diaphragm in them may also make them harsher, if what you presently have are original aluminum.

    *****

    I'll have the two-way "Keepers" done next weekend, probably, and can try them on those horns, if you like....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    P-Audio PH-230.

    I've only done rudimentary testing on them....

    [Over in Widget's horn/driver tests, I think.]

    *****

    I didn't think LE175 sounded all that bad on HL91; about the same as JBL's cheapest current driver, 2418H-1. It was the potato-masher horn I didn't like.

    Using a titanium diaphragm in them may also make them harsher, if what you presently have are original aluminum.

    *****

    I'll have the two-way "Keepers" done next weekend, probably, and can try them on those horns, if you like....

    Yeah, those be the beasties.


    I don't know why he had to put the extra mount holes in one of them and didn't notice until later. Thing is, they're the same distance as the existing holes and he had them mounted on metal stand-offs. He was living in a "home-tel" and it was VERY dark in there.

    Yes, by all means give them a test. Based on the printed "600 Hz" lower cut-off they could be a pretty good match for the HL-91 when used as rear surrounds. BAsed on their length, I thought the cutt-off would be twice that.

    Also, it's good to know that I can always get another pair (without paying vintage JBL prices) for the front surrounds if and when they would get redone. I do see 2425s on occasion too. At 16' in the air, I don't much relish working on the front surrounds. Bad enough re-doing the rears at 8'.

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    If you can pick up a pair of 2370 (A), that's a great combination. Very realistic sounding.

    Ron

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    Wow, the PH-230 really holds on at the bottom end and this is probably what's giving me the intelligability in the male voice I noted. Like I said, it seems to go a little lower than the HL-91 and better integrates to the woofer with the Keeper crossovers.

  11. #11
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    Good news, Todd. These fairly deep horns support 800 Hz, albeit with a bit of "Hornie" character. Driver/horn only w/39 uF protection capacitor (Red, Green,) and running on DMTP crossover (Violet, Blue) within +/- 1.5 dB @1/6 octave smoothing.

    Crossover controls set at mid, response is good out to 18 kHz (-6 dB). I wouldn't push the VHF any harder than this crossover does.

    Like PH-316, pattern control is not comparable to the JBL originals; these are cosmetic clones w/o diffraction slots. Good enough for your intended purpose, I'd say; bigger dispersion than 075/2402H at the top.

    Crossover can likely be tweaked to take out the dip at 4 kHz there; you get them built and we'll try to fix that, perhaps by increasing C6 slightly. Earl K can tell us how much just by lookin' at these curves, most likely; compensation isn't kicking in quite low enough for this driver/horn combo. PM him an invite to come play over here.

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...t=12420&page=6

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=163

    [For a real treat, look to score some 2344(A)s now. We'll wean you off those nasty exponentials eventually.... ]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    Good news, Todd. These fairly deep horns support 800 Hz, albeit with a bit of "Hornie" character. Driver/horn only w/39 uF protection capacitor (Red, Green,) and running on DMTP crossover (Violet, Blue) within +/- 1.5 dB @1/6 octave smoothing.

    Crossover controls set at mid, response is good out to 18 kHz (-6 dB). I wouldn't push the VHF any harder than this crossover does.

    Like PH-316, pattern control is not comparable to the JBL originals; these are cosmetic clones w/o diffraction slots. Good enough for your intended purpose, I'd say; bigger dispersion than 075/2402H at the top.

    Crossover can likely be tweaked to take out the dip at 4 kHz there; you get them built and we'll try to fix that by increasing C6 slightly. Earl K can tell us how much just by lookin' at these curves, most likely; compensation isn't kicking in quite low enough for this driver/horn combo. PM him an invite to come play over here.

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...t=12420&page=6

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=163

    [For a real treat, look to score some 2344(A)s now. We'll wean you off those nasty exponentials eventually.... ]

    Thanks Zilch!

    Couple questions???

    Is the "DMTP" crossover the one in the link (basically the "Keeper" with the VHF by-pass)?

    I thought chokes filter out highs. Is the choke in the by-pass to tune the crossover to keep the driver from getting in a ragged area?

    Can you post a similar chart but include the HL-91?

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    Is the "DMTP" crossover the one in the link (basically the "Keeper" with the VHF by-pass)?
    Less related to the "Keeper" than NL200B. It goes back to the original, isolates the bypass, and makes it adjustable. In L200B it was fixed, and used to somewhat different purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    I thought chokes filter out highs. Is the choke in the by-pass to tune the crossover to keep the driver from getting in a ragged area?
    Note the value of the inductor. It sets where the UHF rolloff occurs, and thus, the upper starting point for the 6 dB/octave compensation slope. The design is well documented in that thread as it evolved. Earl K works through the calculations there.

    Regarding your second point, I am paying particular attention of late to shutting off boost above the 20 kHz region. Some designs pour on more and more power above that, as high as 200 kHz in another instance I'm working with. While it may be argued that there is nothing up there, anyway, I think that's not the case.

    What I DO know is that boost sounds nasty when it pushes the driver/horn too hard. Gratuitous inductors are thus appearing there in more of my crossovers.

    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    Can you post a similar chart but include the HL-91?
    Sure. I'm just now setting up to do a bunch of LE85s on HL91. I can throw in these two 2426Js easily. Stay tuned....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    Less related to the "Keeper" than NL200B. It goes back to the original, isolates the bypass, and makes it adjustable. In L200B it was fixed, and used to somewhat different purpose.

    Note the value of the inductor. It sets where the UHF rolloff occurs, and thus, the starting point for the 6 dB/octave slope. The design is well documented in that thread as it evolved. Earl K works through the calculations there.

    Sure. I'm just now setting up to do a bunch of LE85s on HL91. I can throw in these two 2426Js easily. Stay tuned....
    While your at it, would also be interesting to see the LE85/LE175 on the PH.

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    O.K., then, these are all driver only, no filter except 39 uF series protection cap.

    On PH-230:

    2426J: Red = 10194, Orange = 10106

    LE85: Violet = 22222, Cyan = 18172

    LE175: Teal = 7242, Black = 6886

    On HL91:

    2426J: Green = 10106, Blue = 101094

    LE175s play VHF with virtually no boost on PH-230. They're the top two above 10 kHz.

    LE85s likely wouldn't require a tweak at 4 kHz.

    2426J on PH-230 is redone, i.e., nothing saved from yesterday. Compare for an indication of method repeatability....
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