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Thread: 4412A use Vertical or Horizontal

  1. #1
    Member bone215's Avatar
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    4412A use Vertical or Horizontal

    I am seeking technical explanations about original design, room interaction, phase, imaging, etc.
    The speaker is designed for horizontal use. It also appears to me from looking at pictures of JBL speakers, that some are designed with the drivers laid out similarly and they appear in the pictures to be used placed vertically.
    Just what are the advantages and disadvantages to each placement?
    thank you

  2. #2
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    The easiest thing to do is simply give it a try and see if it works for you or not. If you want to get technical check out the polar response plots in the brochure. It's not all that hard to see what's going on and also why it's so important to make sure you are getting a L and R when purchasing a pair because the plots are asymetrical. You would be taking the worst axis and using that in the Horizontal plane. Not something you would typically want to do.


    http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4412.pdf

    Rob

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    Member bone215's Avatar
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    That answer went sailing right over my head. I do not know what a polar response chart is nor how to read it. I understand it is a horizontal monitor. I use it in a horizontal position.

    Here is why I ask. The photo gallery on this site depicts the 4312 MK II and it looks similar but is vertical, the 4311 is depicted not only vertical, but upside down, with the woofer on top.

    I am sorry that I do not understand your answer. Is there a simpler way of explaining how the sound goes into the room when the speaker is horizontal and why that is better for the listener than when the sound goes into the room from the vertical position?

    Thanks.

  4. #4
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    That answer went sailing right over my head. I do not know what a polar response chart is nor how to read it. I understand it is a horizontal monitor. I use it in a horizontal position.

    Here is why I ask. The photo gallery on this site depicts the 4312 MK II and it looks similar but is vertical, the 4311 is depicted not only vertical, but upside down, with the woofer on top.

    I am sorry that I do not understand your answer. Is there a simpler way of explaining how the sound goes into the room when the speaker is horizontal and why that is better for the listener than when the sound goes into the room from the vertical position?



    Sorry about that. The 4312 Mk II is shown that way. The 4311 is shown both ways as you say. The 4311 was originally set up to be used on a console so the controls for the midrange and tweeter were placed on the bottom of the enclosure and the midrange and tweeter were placed there as well. The originals were not mirror imaged. That means that when you used them you had one midrange driver on the inside and one on the outside. The sound fields were not symmetrical and the image would pull to the left or the right depending on the frequency. If you look at the original 4312 one of the changes was to make a left and right speaker to help stabilize the image and give you a mirror imaged pair. There are a couple of driver baffle configurations JBL uses. There is the close coupled one like the 4411, 4412. With that baffle mounting the drivers are optimized so when the speaker is mounted horizontally with the HF drivers on the inside you get the most uniform sound field with the largest sweet spot. The 4410 has the drivers in a vertical array and you get the most uniform sound field when they are set-up that way. When the drivers are mounted in a straight vertical line you get a symmetrical sound field on both sides of the speakers. This helps stabilize the image and if you read the JBL literature they recommend the 4410 if imaging is a paramount concern. How the drivers are mounted on the baffle determines what the best placement is. Hope this helps you.

    Rob

  5. #5
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    My undeducated guess is that it really doesn't make much difference since the UHF and mids have no lenses so their path would be conical and not directional favoring one axis over another. The importance of the horizontal layout of the 4412As seemed to be to minimize the space taken up by the larger boxes when used as nearfield monitors in a studio where they'd normally be wall-mounted. It is important to make sure they are off the floor, whether they're used horizontally or vertically, otherwise they get very boomy in the low end. Beyond that, the Right/Left placement of the tweeters in horizontal applications would be dependent upon how far apart you place them and where your listening position is relative to the speakers. You'd want to end up with the mids about ear-level in any case. JBL configured them with the UHFs to the outside but in a large enough room where you can get them up to ten-feet apart, you may want to reverse that anyway in horizontal applications. The array is so tight that it can't make much difference when used vertically but don't be afraid to swap them left/right if it sounds better in your room. As others have said, a lot depends on what sounds best to your ears but there's absolutely no reason you can't use them vertically (on stands) in a larger room than a studio application. :dont-know

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    Member bone215's Avatar
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    Thanks Robh,
    I begin to understand more.

    I presently have the HF to the outside. The speakers are about 4 to 4.5 feet apart. Your comments lead me to conclude I need to swap them so that the HF will be inside corner not outside corner.

    What is it about placing the HF to the inside that provides the best and most uniform sound field?

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    Member bone215's Avatar
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    BMW,
    Thanks for your reply.

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    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606
    With that baffle mounting the drivers are optimized so when the speaker is mounted horizontally with the HF drivers on the inside you get the most uniform sound field with the largest sweet spot. The 4410 has the drivers in a vertical array and you get the most uniform sound field when they are set-up that way. When the drivers are mounted in a straight vertical line you get a symmetrical sound field on both sides of the speakers. This helps stabilize the image and if you read the JBL literature they recommend the 4410 if imaging is a paramount concern. How the drivers are mounted on the baffle determines what the best placement is. Hope this helps you.
    Rob
    Rob
    I guess I'm a little slow today. I've read the above 3 times, but cant seem to extract the answer. I have 4410s. I understand the horizontal placement recommendation, but still am confused on the vertical config. I have them set with the port to the inside (closest to each other). Is that correct ?? Have never found literature showing which is L and R.
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

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    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    My understanding with most of the monitors was that you placed them with tweeters outward to create a wider imaging - Or, you put them with the tweeters inward (Woofs on the outside) to create a narrower sound field. All has to do with your listening room, of course - on a narrow wall, you might want to have the widest image possible for that space. I gather it can be a pretty subtle shift for some models of monitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97
    Rob
    I guess I'm a little slow today. I've read the above 3 times, but cant seem to extract the answer. I have 4410s. I understand the horizontal placement recommendation, but still am confused on the vertical config. I have them set with the port to the inside (closest to each other). Is that correct ?? Have never found literature showing which is L and R.
    2ch: Oppo, JoLida 502CRC, JBL L212, 18ti,240ti; Heath AS101, Von Schweikert VR4
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  10. #10
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Ok let me give this a shot. Bare with me on the graphs as they are the easiest way to demonstrate how driver spacing and orientation effect the off axis frequency response. At work also is the crossover network as well. The crossover frequencies, filter type, and slope will all effect the off axis response. If you look at the three graphs they are for the 4411 and 4410 Monitors. The 4411 has the same driver arrangements as the 4412 and is set up for Horizontal placement with the high frequency drivers on the inside of the pair. If you look at the 4411 plots at +/- 20 and 40 degree's you can see that the smoother curve is with the HF drivers facing in. That is the right side of the Left speaker or the squares on both curves. The third plot is the 4410. This plot is not scaled the same with fixed offset angles but gives you essentially the same information in -3dB increments. This Monitor has it's drivers in a vertical line. If you look at the Horizontal plot it is a mirror image. It doesn't matter which side of the driver array you are on as the sound fields are identical on the Right and Left sides.

    You could use the 4411/4412's with the HF drivers facing out however that's not how they were intended to be set up. If it works for you that's fine.

    Rob
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    Member bone215's Avatar
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    thanks rob
    it begins to make sense, after reading your post over n over n over
    reminds me of 1st college math class much mental work to let some concepts sink in
    thanks for taking the time and making the post
    I switched hf to inside
    will spend some time w stereo listening

  12. #12
    Registered User MJC's Avatar
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    The only JBL published info I have ever seen in horizontal mirror image speakers is for the new Studio L 820.
    " A wider stereo image is presented with the tweeter/midrange array outboard and a tigher image is presented with the array inboard."
    Both illustrations show the speakers to be less than 6~8 ft apart.

  13. #13
    Senior Member LowPhreak's Avatar
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    bone215 -

    Here's the poop for the 4412 in case you don't have it:
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