Horn Dampening--811B

[Storm]

Okay...so no one can have a casual argument on this site, it has to be about graphs, charts, tables, and information?

Is it past your comprehension that the best graph in the world is your own EARS?

If you don't like what I post, why bother responding to it...click that "x" and get off the page - simple.

[edgewound]

Yer? - what are ya from tha sauth (south)? ... even better, Berkley CA!



Come'on Zilch - why do you have to chime in with your rude comments like that?

Who's being rude? I think you bashed Widget, too.

For your information, I am not babbling meaninglessly. I am only making a valid point that just like artists, these engineers could have purposely incorporated the "ring" into the horn.

I know, lets use your time machine and go back and ask them!

Cutting the vane welds and filling the kerfs with rubber also damps the horn, late model 511s came like that from the plant.

I think Tom contributed a good post on that. No need for the time machine....it's called proof.

Leave everyone alone, please. Thank you.

That's uncalled for, too. Zilch studies alot of this stuff, empirically.
----------

I agree, we are over analyzing the horns. Just like any sports commentator over analyzes any great athlete.

There isn't a hell of alot to analyze. This is subject is common knowledge among experienced users, and you're getting the knowledge for virtually free.

We need to all just sit back and enjoy what we have and be grateful.

See my preceeding comment. Most of us here are grateful for Lansing Heritage

Gary - your'e right, if there was a "ringing" problem, I am sure Altec would have fixed it right away. And, I am listening to my 846's right now and I think we make ourselves hear what we want to hear. When I take the ringing out of my mind, I do not hear it.

Like I said before, I think the problem exists to those who want to make it exist and for those who listen to high pitched music like opera, classical, and jazz.

With all due respect, and not intending to start, or fan, a flame war...that statement makes about as much sense as comparing the performance of a Ferrari Enzo to that of a Yugo and thinking that the difference is all in your head.

[grumpy]

Cordiality and tolerance are generally free.
Respect is earned.

-grumpy

[Zilch]

Is it past your comprehension that the best graph in the world is your own EARS?

Minutes ago, you, yourself, identified the inherent shortcoming of that approach:

And, I am listening to my 846's right now and I think we make ourselves hear what we want to hear. When I take the ringing out of my mind, I do not hear it.

Thus, only OBJECTIVE criteria can resolve these issues, and engineers dedicate themselves to that discipline.

Then, in summary,

Like I said before, I think the problem exists to those who want to make it exist and for those who listen to high pitched music like opera, classical, and jazz.

Akin, somewhat, to being better able to imagine life-size performers with stacked L100's? Prattle.

Zilch----Get off your high horse. Storm was just speculating, kind'a thinking out loud to us.

I'm genuinely sorry, Tom. While this is in "anything goes" DIY, the thread is a serious inquiry into a matter of interest to many readers coming here for reliable information such as you posted above.

In which context, there should be no harm in clearly identifying, in contrast, meritless pap as being exactly and only that....

[Tom Brennan]

"While this is in "Anything goes" DIY, the thread is a serious inquiry into a matter of interest to many readers coming here for reliable information such as you posted above."


Which is one reason why, on second thought, I deleted my comment.

Regards

[moldyoldy]

Even with more than 8 categories to post in, there's still only 2 trains of thought;

A. Myth, Magic, and The Best of BS.

B. Science and Technology

Problem is, those in group A don't like their title, yet are either unwilling or unable to complete the homework required to competently participate in group B, and assume their magic can compensate for any shortcomings.

News Flash for group A; Magic only works when science ain't around (check your history books for proof). Spout some BS in the presence of science and be prepared to learn and be humbled, or get cut off at the knees.

[edgewound]

News Flash for group A; Magic only works when science ain't around (check your history books for proof). Spout some BS in the presence of science and be prepared to learn and be humbled, or get cut off at the knees.

While this may be true...it's still up to all of us to keep the place friendly and cordial....respectful.

Tho we do plummet into a little fun now and then.

[moldyoldy]

True on all counts, Edge.

Didn't mean to be smug, though there's something about smugness that seems to accompany 'knowing you're right', and having proof of it. Another human frailty.

I think the hardest part of qualifying for group B is the ability to admit to self that your latest project didn't turn out as well as you'd hoped, isn't the hottest thing on the block, and would embarrass you if your peers heard it. Once you've been-there-done-that, you can apply what you learned to the next one.

[Mr. Widget]

I think the hardest part of qualifying for group B is the ability to admit to self that your latest project didn't turn out as well as you'd hoped, isn't the hottest thing on the block, and would embarrass you if your peers heard it.

You think?

Scientists do that regularly... look, "my experiment to prove X blew up, but I invented Y." Unfortunately it'll be a generation before anyone can figure out what to do with Y, but here it is!


Widget

[Tom Loizeaux]

Years ago, when I was first setting up my Altec Valencias, I heard about horn ringing so I cut a piece of clear vinyl tubing, sliced it down the length and slid it over the rear edge of the center vertical fin in the 811 sectorial horn.
I don't know how effective it was but it may have reduced some ringing - and it also probably reduced the beaming a little too.
They're still in there and those Valencias sound pretty nice.

Tom

[loach71]

I use some of the newer (rubber based as opposed to the old asphalt stuff) spray-on auto undercoating material to damp my metal midrange horns - like JBL 2345s. I first bead blasted the horns to get all the old goop off them - and get down to bare aluminum. After masking off the horn interior, I applied 4 medium coats of the undercoating.

After it was totally dry I removed the masking and spray painted all the surfaces of the horns matte black.

The horns do sound better - less "honky" - and the RTA / calibrated mike showed a cleaner response curve (around 1KHz to 2.5 KHz) than that delivered before the treatment.

Is this treatment the holy grail for metal horns? Probably not - but for the cost it seems worthwhile. Maybe the improvement is partially due to the placebo effect but I do like the results.

[Mr. Widget]

Is this treatment the holy grail for metal horns? Probably not - but for the cost it seems worthwhile. Maybe the improvement is partially due to the placebo effect but I do like the results.

Yeah, the placebo effect that happens when you see a peak vanish on a frequency plot.

I'm sorry... I really don't want to be rude. I agree with those that suggest that listening is key, but the measurements are also pretty helpful at times.

...and to those that are running their horns stock... what the hell, they sold them that way. Enjoy them, but if you want, there have been several potentially useful tweaks shared on this thread.


Widget

[loach71]

Yeah, the placebo effect that happens when you see a peak vanish on a frequency plot.

I'm sorry... I really don't want to be rude. I agree with those that suggest that listening is key, but the measurements are also pretty helpful at times.

...and to those that are running their horns stock... what the hell, they sold them that way. Enjoy them, but if you want, there have been several potentially useful tweaks shared on this thread.


Widget

Agreed.

Sometimes one must become a "meter-reader" because psycho-acoustics are so damned flaky. No rudeness perceived - empiricism is needed in audio.

[mbask]

100% transparency cannot be achieved without an unacceptable loss in pertinent musical information
after lots of attempts late last night, I stand corrected
I'm leaving mine alone, they'er still the best.

anybody up for shots o Yagermeister
35% non placebic

[Gary L]

I am on my way Mbask, Yeager could do wonders for some here but like my horns, I just enjoy it!

SO, Has anyone charted the sound that comes from 811Bs, ring or not, before dampening and after dampening?

I have to admit some of the charts and graphs tend to be over my head but I also have to admit they speak volumes to others.

I never go against real knowledge or science but often need some of it explained in laymans terms.
I am very thankfull that many intelligent individuals here are willing to take the time and explain some of this stuff in ways I can understand.

At times I do wish I had some Pop Corn to go with the Yeager so I could just sit back and read while I listen to the ringing in my ears.

Is there any scientific info on before and after dampening 811B horns?
Does anyone have photos to show what they did to produce the results?

Thanks.

Gary