Bryston 10B

[JBLnsince1959]

Bo and widget;

thanks for the thread...looks interesting..

Glad you've seen an improvement with your babies Bo..

Your experience reflects mine with the ashly..a very good crossover for the money and is perfect for most setups but it can eliminate some of the finer nuances in music which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.

great thread...

[boputnam]

...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.

I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.

[Mr. Widget]

...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.

I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.

I take issue with both of these comments... if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all... you can be perfectly happy with a stock L100, L200, or L300... and many are. If on the other hand you really listen, there are a myriad of short comings that become evident with these fine systems. I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.


Widget

[boputnam]

...The switching back may be more obvious.

Exactly what Widget and I found this time, and knew from before - I think you guys posted the same on the 4343 to 4344 upgrade thread.

Going up in quality is at-times a subtle change. Going down in quality is much more noticeable. It was subjectively easier to hear what we were missing, than what we were gaining.

I'll try and get my act together and post annotated Smaart displays. Been busy getting ready for Jerry Day 2006!!

[boputnam]

OK, so here goes.

We started at a 2m position, and compared the Ashly response to the Bryston. Note that the response (EQ) had been optimized for the listening position (5m), so this 2m position is considerably closer to the speaker.

The Ashly has a -24dB slope, although the Response was adjusted to something less than a full Linkwitz-Riley (i.e., maybe -3dB down) at the crossover point of 290Hz.

In the Bryston view, you can see the hump at/near the crossover point of 290Hz due to the Butterworth filter and gentle -12dB slope.

[boputnam]

Here's the ending Bryston view at the listening position (5m), with the EQ set for the Bryston. It sounds great...

[boputnam]

Top = Ashly EQ settings.
- Note the emphasis (positive bias) from 4kHz thru 20kHz needed to achieve flat response. This supports the obervations of "veiled" HF response.

Bottom = Bryston EQ settings.
- Note the mostly flat HF range (slight boost at 8kHz only)
- Notch at 2kHz
- Notch at 290Hz to reduce the Butterworth hump.
- Cuts at 40Hz thru 63Hz to reduce room nodes

[boputnam]

Widget at 5m, off axis...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Bo,

I see you have 3 woofers, nice.

Thankyou for posting the curves, very informative.

Slightly O/T, bit I wonder if your assending equ from 2-8 k has anything to do with speaker location and off axis response of the 2307? Above 10 K is flat?

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

I take issue with both of these comments... if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all... you can be perfectly happy with a stock L100, L200, or L300... and many are. If on the other hand you really listen, there are a myriad of short comings that become evident with these fine systems. I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.


Widget

Absolutely, although I sense am preaching to the converted. Each to his own I suppose. Any Bose Fans on the forums..??

Perhaps one way of explaining it is its an experiencial thing.

For me its bit like going to hear my favourite Jazz trio at Bennetts Lane ( noted Jazz venue Melbourne). You go there to hear, you sit down, shut up and listen intently. Why spend all the money otherwise?

The higher the calibre of the total sound system the more compelling and engaging the experience is and that only comes with expense, time and experience.

As I said to Bo in a pm, you can A/B till your blue in the face but that ain't necessarily the right approach.

Firstly, its unfortunate that non linear component upgrades (within the signal chain) are much more difficult to discern as being better and the conclusion is often its different or maybe only slightly better. But when you consider the signal path this is hardly surprising. The signal starts out average, it goes through a good preamp, a mediocre eq, a good active crossover and a not so good passive crossover. I mean hello. (just an example)

However if you systematically upgrade the critcal aspects (weak links) of the system that are known to be poorer performers than the best components its a no boner. The things that need improving are often not obvious and require careful investigation. The upgrades are then said to be linear linear and the improvement is going to be linear. The enlightenment and engagement is immediate and the listening experience more compelling.

Its a bit like going to your favourite dealer an asking him to play a $2000 system and then swith the preamp to something better, you might want to believe its better but it might be hard to tell them apart. I call it audiophile phobia. The sales rep then plays you to a $10,000 system, you can really hear the difference but you can't afford it so you buy the preamp anyway and you play it believing its better until you change something else.

Back to the upgrades if you switch back to the original configuration after a reasonable period of exposure and the prior experience is usually less than engaging and often unlistenable.

It takes time to fully appreciate the new experience, the brain and ear has to adjust, unlearn and re-learn. Auditory receptors are not switches even though we can distinguish some differences quickly.

The ear and the mind become trained as you progress and listening like anything else is a skill.

Ian

[boputnam]

Slightly O/T, bit I wonder if your assending equ from 2-8 k has anything to do with speaker location and off axis response of the 2307? Above 10 K is flat?

Sure could - dunno. It is optimized for the listener's position, and that certainly has it's "characteristics".

And yea, there are actually four woofs - but the elder female was off somewhere dreaming of tennis balls. The male pup, pictured, never leaves my whereabouts...

-----

As an aside, you'll notice in the LR pic, there is no gear. No racks, no amps, no nothing. I think you guys that insist on enshrining your stuff between your mains in the LR (or FR) are pushing the WAF, big-time. It's actually really great to get it all far outa sight, and not have to kneel between the JBL gods to make adjustments or change the source material.

JMO...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Okay,

So its all in with all the nibbles still.

We need another pic with lovely wifey, I recall she was quite fond of these JBL Gods.

I see the Widget is glued to the chair, where's the Stereophile magazine?

Excuse le rant above.

Ian

[JBLnsince1959]

I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.

I stand corrected..comparative is a much better word ( in fact it's perfect for me) because I don't have the ears of Widget and Ian.

When I have the time ( I'm working balls to the walls today [Sunday]) I'll write a little about how the brain preceives Auditory signals. There are 3 major ways people preceive auditory signals and depending upon how your brain is wired, depends on your experience. Widget ( and a few others I've noticed on the forum) are people who preceive auditory signals with their Conscious mind ( as opposed to their subconscious and unconscious mind). sounds trigger their minds to attention, to focus, they can hear the smallest of differences and imperfections, they have what is called Phonographic memory...Widget may even have a higher level of this talent....( different levels of talent between people)

so Widget when you say "if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all..." I know what group you're in and that is your expeience ( and all others who have your talent) and I honor that GOD given talent.... but I'm wired a little different but I don't have time to write about it( spent too much time on this already) [ also understand there are 4 other modes of personal dynamic models that help shape this also]

anyway..great thread. Bo the graphs certainly point out what Widget was hearing and you were talking about...

Great looking puppy you have also..

well back to work..

[Robh3606]

Comparative is a good word. I think your right Ian about long term listening. There are some changes that are immediately apparent many times they are subtle but still there. It's only after a you get retuned/re calibrated and then change do you really hear it for what it is. It may be a change to some or an improvement to others depending on your own personal preferences. I am struggling with this right now. I have made too many changes in both my set-ups in too quickly. My old reliable which I have used as a reference for years has been modified and at first I was thrilled now I am not too sure the trade offs and differences between then and now is really what I want. Should underline I because thats really what it all boils down too as JBLnsince1959 aptly pointed out. We are all wired a bit different and certain preferences are going to be more important than others. My main issue in the change in way the horns image. Even though the new horns are what I feel is a more natural presentation I am struggling to unlearn what I have become used too over the past couple of years. I am finding this much more difficult that I thought. Most system changes I can just go with the flow and move on. For some reason this one is not that easy and I don't understand why. It's almost like I have a different set of speakers which in actuality I do. I think I need a chil pill and let things work themselves out.

Hey Widget

I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.

You and I are very different. I have music on all the time both at home and at work. When I am doing things at home and at work I think it's great to help you get through some mundane tasks at work as an example. When that's going on I am certainly not in critcal listen mode or I would never be able to get the task at hand done. I have music on right now as I type this and usually do whenever I am online both at work and home. The only time I am really "On" is when I sit in my chair to listen. I try not to be "On" all the time and try to look from the perspective of "whats right". I find it very difficult to relax and enjoy the music if I am listening for warts. Too distracting at least for me. I don't want to hear what's wrong at that point I just want to relax and get lost in the music. If it slaps you in the face I can see that but I don't sit down to listen looking for issues unless or course I just made a change. Then it's damn hard to find the off switch so you can relax again.

Hello Ian

Any Bose Fans on the forums..??

I like my brother in laws at his house.

Rob

[JBLnsince1959]

Rob:

I know exactly where your coming from in many ways i'm the same...music is playing in the backgroud for me also right now. I have two listening modes..one enjoyment and thenanother for comparative/critical listen which i have to switch gears and really focus ( doesn't come easy unless it's so bad that I automatically switch gears to figure it out)

I would like to make sure my previous comments are not misunderstood...I was talking about how someones physical brain is hard wired, nothing we can do about it, just how we are born ( in particular using the NLP model in this case)....with that information I can know exactly HOW someone will listen ( and with a little more information about other personal systems [ other models] I can tell you alot more)..

the completely subjective side which would include someones individual tastes and preferences is another matter.....

It's a fine line that most people are not aware of.....

My old reliable which I have used as a reference for years has been modified and at first I was thrilled now I am not too sure the trade offs and differences between then and now is really what I want.
Rob

Yes, i've been there, one thing i've learned over the years is that it's easy to confuse "different" with "better". For example when a NORMAL person is listening to a system ( not someone with a finely tuned auditory brain like Widget) they get use to hearing it...now every system, no matter how hard we try to balance it, will have some imbalances or it will be more "friendly" to a certain freq range. for example maybe one setup will showcase horns and another system they will be more muted...if I've been listening to the muted horns and then make change that showcases the horns I'm going to be real excited because i'm hearing things in a way i didn't before...HOWEVER, after a peroid of time.. well as B.B. King says - "The Thrill is Gone" and we see what it is we are really hearing...

anyway.. this what I experience and I have to be careful when I make major changes because 60% of time I want to go back....