Who Can Speak From Experience About Comparing Vintage Gear to Modern Equipment?

[Steve Gonzales]

Been Playing Eric through that little SAEXXX1B amp this afternoon.

I like the air and bite of this amp. There is a sort if synergy with the JBL's on that score. In comparison I have a really excellent GB150 mosfet amp that is so smooth and polite But it does not quite grab the edge of your pants the way this little old amp does.

Ever gone at heard your favorite band at the local and stood 10 feet in front of the kit and an old Marshall 100 watt head with the Strat screaming ""Fire" . All you hear is the band not the FOH.

It's a bit like fire crackers going off in front of you but the focus is the soul of the tune and that's what its all about.

If you can't feel the soul of the tune something is wrong. I tend to find that more often than not with modern hifi, cold and clinical, sterile and lifeless. I've heard that also about a certain Japanese branded hi end stuff that is opposition to JBL. No wonder their market share is crap too.

Ian

Pic is Phil Para, The Espy Lounge.

Very well put Ian. I strive to get as close to the real thing myself. I know what High Fidelity means. It does seem that some understand it as a graph on some computer screen. There are times when a driver measures bad on the screen, but sounds right. There is nothing wrong with measuring drivers and response, don't get me wrong, but if what you end up with is a dry, lifeless "machine", I believe you have to start trusting your own ears and what satisfies your ears, not your eyes. Most of the "Lab Techie types" will always try to undermine an opinion that doesn't prescribe to their "knowledge" by calling a system non-linear or some other completely dismissive term. I've noticed that there is a consensus that the traditional JBL sound is lacking and needs to be "fixed". While I'm sure that there are some good tweaks that can be done, I rather like the traditional JBL or West Coast sound. I've read here recently about the L300 being lacking or not good enough to compete with current day offerings too. While a big 4way JBL will certainly have more to offer, the L300 is an awesome speaker and can still outperform just about anything at many times it's price point today. I think that alot of members might feel like they don't have a great sounding rig because someone says: "That measures bad on the graph". They say that a system is "Neato" or "Fun", in a derogatory manner, because it isin't up to some "machine standard" they're trying to herd people into. I've read countless posts about many people's experiences with vintage JBL or Altec systems, and that they fell in love with that sound. I say that unique quality of sound is really what most are after and should feel no shame in preserving it. A person is not an idiot because he loves his L100's or an Lxxx or 4xxx. Upgrade the caps and coils in the passive crossover, install a better driver, etc-etc, but don't tweak it until it doesn't sound like a JBL anymore. I've heard many over-tweaked systems, and by and large, the only thing that resembles JBL or Altec are the foilcals and badging, sometimes not even that, and they can KEEP IT!. If loving the unique sound of vintage JBL/Altec systems is wrong, I don't want to be right!. I recommend 80's vintage Yamaha M series SS for the LF and VTL/ Manley/Conrad Johnson (EL34 based) tubes for the rest, especially if you have compression drivers and horns.

[scott fitlin]

Very well put Ian. I strive to get as close to the real thing myself. I know what High Fidelity means. It does seem that some understand it as a graph on some computer screen. There are times when a driver measures bad on the screen, but sounds right. There is nothing wrong with measuring drivers and response, don't get me wrong, but if what you end up with is a dry, lifeless "machine", I believe you have to start trusting your own ears and what satisfies your ears, not your eyes. Most of the "Lab Techie types" will always try to undermine an opinion that doesn't prescribe to their "knowledge" by calling a system non-linear or some other completely dismissive term. I've noticed that there is a consensus that the traditional JBL sound is lacking and needs to be "fixed". While I'm sure that there are some good tweaks that can be done, I rather like the traditional JBL or West Coast sound. I've read here recently about the L300 being lacking or not good enough to compete with current day offerings too. While a big 4way JBL will certainly have more to offer, the L300 is an awesome speaker and can still outperform just about anything at many times it's price point today. I think that alot of members might feel like they don't have a great sounding rig because someone says: "That measures bad on the graph". They say that a system is "Neato" or "Fun", in a derogatory manner, because it isin't up to some "machine standard" they're trying to herd people into. I've read countless posts about many people's experiences with vintage JBL or Altec systems, and that they fell in love with that sound. I say that unique quality of sound is really what most are after and should feel no shame in preserving it. A person is not an idiot because he loves his L100's or an Lxxx or 4xxx. Upgrade the caps and coils in the passive crossover, install a better driver, etc-etc, but don't tweak it until it doesn't sound like a JBL anymore. I've heard many over-tweaked systems, and by and large, the only thing that resembles JBL or Altec are the foilcals and badging, sometimes not even that, and they can KEEP IT!. If loving the unique sound of vintage JBL/Altec systems is wrong, I don't want to be right!. I recommend 80's vintage Yamaha M series SS for the LF and VTL/ Manley/Conrad Johnson (EL34 based) tubes for the rest, especially if you have compression drivers and horns.

Basically!

I learned this years ago. The techs used to say you can measure performance, and what couldnt be measured couldnt be heard. Yet, I always preferred the sound of some things, and not others, in spite of what the measurements said.

It even applies to rooms themselves! Look at Carnegie Hall. Always known for its wonderful sounding acoustics, then, they redid the hall, and with modern technology, and MEASUREMENTS, they fixed what wasnt broke, and made it RIGHT, it has never been the same! They then spent money trying to get back what they had, they threw blame on the contracting companies for using the wrong materials, etc! But, they have not been able to recapture the original sound of Carnegie Hall.

Just because its older, doesnt mean it is bad, or wont work.

I mean, how did they create halls and theatres, or speakers and electronics that sound so nice, even by todays standards way back without all the technology available today? The Vacumm Tube was all but dead, except for MI apps, then, the tube is back with a vengeance in todays world of sophisticated digital technology!!!!!!!!

To my ears, some, not all, but some of the best vintage gear that was available, had a much more musical sound, than todays SOTA gear!

[Shane Shuster]

Ipods are the devil, the only thing i can say that doesnt seem to have diminished in quality of the years, are Headphones!, made from companys like Sennheiser, Grados, or something,

Wasn't the mass market equivilant of the Ipod in the 1970's those suitcase looking recordplayers? How is an Ipod worse than that? The non hifi crowd had much worse all in one systems in the 1970s. As for headphones, to me the modern speakers sound closer to headphones which is both good and bad.

Have any of you guys tried the newer stuff in your home? I dont mean the overpriced boutique stuff. The bigger JBL, Tannoy, Genelec ect.

[Zilch]

Oh, Steve, Steve....

Read Toole's latest paper in the June AES Journal on this very subject: Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction-A Scientific Review

Spend $250 on a Behringer RTA and start measuring stuff.

Use its EQ to try different curves.

Resolve your frustration with not experiencing and appreciating the scientific side of this.

You're not an idiot. It'll be enlightening....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Nice post Steve and Scotty.

I think most muso's would endorse your comments.

Anyone heard the term scrubbed as in "scrubbing" the sound.

That term generally applies to over or poor processing of the signal.

I see even Behringer has some valve stuff at the premium end of their range!

I am going to see of I can borrow a Cary push pull 35+35 power amp with some nice valves in it and see what happens.

[alskinner]

As a lot of us have found out good measurements don't always equal a good speaker system.

Most large speaker manufacturers use scientific measurements that are usually in a controlled environemnt such as an Anechoic chamber or other external sound proof room. The main concern is an environmental standard with reproduceable results to check quality control and the speaker system or tranducers abilities within that standard.

The measurements obtained in a garage or room will most likely will vary with things like weather and other external influences, not to say these readings are not useful. They can save time when constructing a speaker system for a paticular persons room.

In the end because of the differences in hearing perception , hearing loss and room placement environment will affect the satisfaction of the end user.

I too prefer a lot of the vintage stuff for one reason, the sound. But am always open to new ideas. Zilch's and others work on the 2407 tansducer peaked my interest. I'm waiting for the horn to come in for them. I am crossing them at 10K and they don't sound bad without the horn.

Ian is spot on about amplifers making a great difference in the sound. I went through about 20 different amps to arrive at four that worked great together in my active version of my 4344 clones.

Main thing is to enjoy the music keep growing and learning.

AL

[jim campbell]

is there a system out there that will sound as good as good as a vintage jb at l300 volumes that doesnt cost the equivilent of a german luxury sedan.a friend of mine needs to know

[scott fitlin]

You know, it comes down to this for me. From years now, engineers have told me I am stuck in the mud. Oh, that was great back in the day, but things are different now, etc!

Well, I have been through digital, analog, this speaker, that speaker, this cabinet, etc. but, I dont know, even todays music sounds nicer, just more natural and relaxed, through certain vintage electronics and speakers.

To me, it is up to the individual to find their likes and dislikes.

Ill tell you this, one thing the speakers of yesteryear, the great ones, had over todays speakers, is transient response. Todays subs take more power, but they dont have that fast snap that used to make bass come to life. In my opinion. I find most of todays sub woofers too garbled sounding, yeah they go down deep, but they have no articulation, and speed, that nimbleness that lets you visualize the instrument and player.

I dont know, but, I do know a few engineers who admit we did have it really good years ago, and it does seem as if we have gone backwards to some degree.

Then of course, there is todays music vs the music of the past. In this area, I definitely feel as if we have moved backwards. Everything is computer made now. Does anyone besides a country an western artist know how to play a guitar, or drums?

I dont know....

[edgewound]

You're absolutely, friggin' right Scotty. There isn't enough time, it seems, for mass craftsmanship anymore.

I do think though the tide will turn in a decade or so. Today's younger crowd....that being late teens and early twenties are very in tune to retro cars, clothes....things that had some style to them. Things that last a long time... I think a new generation of quality seeking consumers will demand more lasting value for their money. Too many iPods, MP3 players, laptop computers, etc...break down into throw aways to soon...and that's just wasted money.

I thinks we've had this discussion before....All us old farts longing for the "good 'ol days".

[Shane Shuster]

If you think you have something better and its a non JBL system then this forum is not for you.

No Altecs?

[SUPERBEE]

Ummmmmmmm......


You guys keep posting. I am gonna go have a drink (Or 5) and listen to some music.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Steve,

What model VTL do you have?

I used to know the local agent and heard some VTL amps a while back, very nice stuff.

[Steve Gonzales]

It is a model Stereo 45. 2 EL34's per channel. I run an active 3way crossover (JBLM553), so it is plenty of power to drive my 2397/2441 combo. I followed Greg Timbers advice (via Giskard) and use a class A Yamaha M35 4 channel to power my HF section (four 076's). That is good advice. I would love to have the ability to raise my Mid to HF point to 8-9khz. The M553 allows for a max point of 5khz. Still sounds great but could be better. Have you ever auditioned an 80's vintage Yamaha MX-1000u?. This amp is a dual mono design, has a S/N of 127db and a THD figure of .003. 260 clean wpc and is actually 1 ohm stable with 1000 watts available power to that load. It has a near 3db of clean dynamic headroom to boot @ 8 ohms. I'd love to read your comments if you ever do. An M80 or M85 of the same era are also solid performers too. I've owned them all and cannot believe these amps sell for such a great price. Your design work with Ken P is an very interesting read. I wish I had the privilage of owning/building one of your designs. I also like your newest endeavor with your active 4345 design XO. You are very gifted. I look forward to your various amp comparisons, should be good info for those of us that need good affordable amplification. I had an SAE P-250 for a while and liked the sound with my then stock L220's. The big MX-1000u is the ticket for me now. It delivers a clean, tight botom end with a seemingly inexhaustable amount of headroom power. Ian, I want to publically apologize for our past run-ins. And I give you big Kudos for speaking with courtesy and class, regards Steve G.

[Steve Gonzales]

While I took a short vaction to meet my best friend, Mr. Dave Brink and his lovely wife Alexandra in NorCal/SF, I went to a high-end shop to hear some of what they had. I spent some time auditioning various speakers. Their sales person really talked up the Vandersteen 2C. He had a high dollar Audio Research pre/ power amp combo. Now, I've read alot about these speakers and was very anxious to hear them. All of the system was in the $10k per piece range. I was not very impressed at all. They did have a great tactile punch in the midbass but other than that, no deal, no way. I cannot imagine what a person could assemble with JBL stuff for that kind of loot, what a shame. I will admit a one time audition is not the absolute bottom line, but, he did say that went through great pains in building a great acoustic environment in which to audition their gear.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Steve,

Yes Yamaha is a good brand and you have some nice hardware.

Nice to see you are having fun and that is what its all about.

Life is too short to be doing anything less.

There are thousands of audiophiles out there who spend (thousands and have ) many sleepless nights unahppy with their endless pursuit.

I am glad I not one of them

Ian